Are there laws independent of the universe?
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06-03-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 12:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Oh that site... Laugh out load
Um, do you disagree with my premise? A is an inequivalent with Not A always, at all times, and in all human cultures...?
It's a drawn-out, constrained build-up to a lot of unoriginal non-sequiter fallacies, and IIRC commits at least one serious equivocation breach. The entire structure of its argument is that it attempts (in a logically insufficeint manner) to prove (WITHOUT using God) that God exists, and then to insist that any knowledge or truth would require God to exist to be known, completely ignoring the fact that the author's strategy is to (attempt to) present a truth that can be known without reference to God. Throw in a few nonsense words and an author who didn't take it seriously and it'd be hilarious absurdity worthy of Lewis Carrol.

Note, btw, that none of what I just said is criticism of the idea of God (true or false), or a claim that God does not exist. That'd be a topic for elsewhere. It's just a criticism of that particular site and its author.

In any case, back to the A or not A dilemma, truth in such terms is limited to our universe. Your linked site uses an example of a car that is either in or not in a parking lot. If we were to imagine, say, alternate realities (not saying that such exist ... and what would the word "exist" mean in that case, anyway?... but that's the sort of woo required to have something outside the universe), it'd be easy to imagine the car in the parking lot in one reality and out of it in the other.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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06-03-2013, 01:36 PM
 
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
This is the question of the teleological argument for the existence of God: Design implies a conscious willful designer. The universe has laws it obeys, and laws that had to be in place before the universe existed in any form.

There is no way around this.

In fact, in light of this (that the universe required a previous designer), arguing atheism is meaningless. Atheism is simply not a rational position to take. You cannot argue with willful irrationality, however.

But we theists hold out hope that we will connect with one person who will change their mind as a result of the things we say, or that we will plant a seed that will later grow into the rational POV that some kind of God must exist.
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06-03-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 10:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 08:24 AM)Julius Wrote:  Are there laws independent of the universe?



This is such a poorly framed question that it is impossible to answer. Why don't you clarify and also try sticking to one question and topic at a time?
A is an inequivalent with Not A always, at all times, and in all human cultures. This is one example of a universal principle that leads to:
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/logic.php

Your simplistic little set of stupid, questions that direct to the conclusion you want directed to, is false. Logic is useful sometimes. However, what is logical to the human brain is not necessarily the sum total or the ONLY way the universe works. There is proof of that in mathematics, (Dirac tensors), and Physics, (Relativity and Special Relativity), and Quantum Mechanics. It would be really nice if the theist trolls who come here would actually know something about that which they pretend to discuss. Jesus H. Fucking Christ.

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Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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06-03-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:Your simplistic little set of stupid, questions that direct to the conclusion you want directed to, is false. Logic is useful sometimes. However, what is logical to the human brain is not necessarily the sum total or the ONLY way the universe works. There is proof of that in mathematics, (Dirac tensors), and Physics, (Relativity and Special Relativity), and Quantum Mechanics. It would be really nice if the theist trolls who come here would actually know something about that which they pretend to discuss. Jesus H. Fucking Christ.
Okay, so argue whichever premise you want to on that site, other than the final one. Is logic physical in construction? Are the absolute truths? Can you think of an example where A and Not A are equivalents? Your rantings are quite off the point. And while I know precious little of tensors or QM, everything I've read about Relativity is rather... logical.
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06-03-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:In any case, back to the A or not A dilemma, truth in such terms is limited to our universe.
There is no empirical evidence for any other universe. You were right to say you shouldn't even conjecture the existence of an alternate universe, because then God would be on the discussion table, too. Additionally, in this universe, it's a chair or not a chair. Period.
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06-03-2013, 02:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 02:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Relativity is hardly logical. Eistein had a hell of a time convincng anyone of it for many years. As usual the theist trolls remain ignorant of that which they pretend to be able to discuss. If A and not A seems to be logical tautology, fine. It proves nothing about the many things that are not, (ie the particle/wave duality). One example of logic being useful, in no way invalidates the fact that we know the universe is not logically intuitive, at it core, (black holes, and the quantum universe)

Consciousness, as has been pointed out many times REQUIRES (space)time. If a dimension is required for the consciousness of a god to function, it cannot be the creator of that dimension. THAT is logical. I defy any of the theist trolls to define "consciousness", or "existence" (they are both PROCESSES) in a way that does not invoke time, AND invoke Special Pleading, and little Billy L. Craig will give you an honorary degree, as he knows that, and has been working on it for 20 years, with no satisfactory explanation. These theist trolls are even unaware of what goes on in their own circles.

Design does not imply anything, as in Chaos Theory we know that what our brains perceive to be order arises spontaneously, and it's been proven over and over in super-computers. The Mandelbrot set also arises is Chaos Theory, with no designer. Order implies nothing. As usual the theist trolls need to go back to school and learn about the actual state of human knowledge.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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06-03-2013, 02:13 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 01:47 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Your simplistic little set of stupid, questions that direct to the conclusion you want directed to, is false. Logic is useful sometimes. However, what is logical to the human brain is not necessarily the sum total or the ONLY way the universe works. There is proof of that in mathematics, (Dirac tensors), and Physics, (Relativity and Special Relativity), and Quantum Mechanics. It would be really nice if the theist trolls who come here would actually know something about that which they pretend to discuss. Jesus H. Fucking Christ.
Okay, so argue whichever premise you want to on that site, other than the final one. Is logic physical in construction? Are the absolute truths? Can you think of an example where A and Not A are equivalents? Your rantings are quite off the point. And while I know precious little of tensors or QM, everything I've read about Relativity is rather... logical.

I'm not going past the second stupid question. It's already ridiculous at the first one. The second one is even worse. It screams stuipity and ignorance of science and philosophy. Nice try though. I knew that was what you were up to when you started that stupid thread about "proving existence". You are very obvious, and manipulative. Jebus would not be pleased that someone so obviously ignorant is attempting to represent him. Can't you call for some assistance ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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06-03-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:Relativity is hardly logical....[snip]
You're building my case again. You and I understand relativity in part and its implications in part. The "entrenched scientists" didn't and refused to see what Einstein saw and knew. But what about relativity defies the laws of logic? I'm waiting...
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06-03-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:I'm not going past the second stupid question. It's already ridiculous at the first one.
So, you disagree with the website I mentioned that logic is a state of mind and you think it has mass and exists in reality? Interesting... please tell us all more.
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06-03-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 01:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:In any case, back to the A or not A dilemma, truth in such terms is limited to our universe.
There is no empirical evidence for any other universe. You were right to say you shouldn't even conjecture the existence of an alternate universe, because then God would be on the discussion table, too. Additionally, in this universe, it's a chair or not a chair. Period.
I won't touch the chair example or whether God is on the discussion table. My point is what you just said, that A or not-A is limited to this universe. Ergo, it is not a law independent of this universe, which is what this thread is about.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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