Are there laws independent of the universe?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
06-03-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
"Outside the universe" makes no sense so...no.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
06-03-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:I won't touch the chair example or whether God is on the discussion table. My point is what you just said, that A or not-A is limited to this universe. Ergo, it is not a law independent of this universe, which is what this thread is about.
Your answer doesn't address the universality of A/Not A... I'm also waiting for another scholar to tell us what parts of relativity are "illogical".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-03-2013, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 05:32 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 10:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A is an inequivalent with Not A always, at all times, and in all human cultures. This is one example of a universal principle that leads to:
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/logic.php

That was extremely disappointing. I ran through it a second time see if it did what I expected, and sure enough found that no matter what you think of logic it leads to "God exists". What were you saying about A and Not A not being equal? And worse, it quoted scripture to make its case, which is pointless. I mentioned before (and re-iterate here) that scripture to us is like the Q'uran quoted to you... worthless.

If God exists, He can be proven through cause and effect. There's ought to be no need to try to prove Him through silly little word games. Besides, even if the conclusion were true it would only be evidence of "a god or gods", not your God.

But let's address this "logic proves God" argument. It's what we call a "circular" argument (which makes it invalid, despite the claims of the final page). A circular argument starts and ends with the same claim: in this case, that God created logic. But there's no evidence for that, outside the assumption that God created everything and that logic is part of everything. If, as we do, you assume that logic is a description of the natural world rather than a prescription of the natural world (or in other words, that it's something we created in order to understand how the world works rather than an actual part of the working world) then there is no need to explain the creation of logic.




My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Starcrash's post
06-03-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Ah fuck, why I do even bother. While I don't expect HayseedJawbone or PrettyPleaseBabyJeebus to have the capacity to appreciate my responses, some others here will. ... Guess that's good enough for Girly.

(06-03-2013 03:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Where does the universe store all the information required to create the specific reality you exist in?

Quite possibly entirely on its surface with the interior being completely empty and void: Holographic principle.

(06-03-2013 10:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A is an inequivalent with Not A always, at all times, and in all human cultures.

What the fuck's culture got to with logic? It is certainly possible to formulate a logic in which A ^ ~A is not a contradiction. I mean hell, it's already been fucking done.

Ah fuck, why I do even bother. Weeping

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 12:26 AM
 
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Mandelbrot set also arises is Chaos Theory, with no designer.

Well, accept for the god-like intelligence tapping on the keybord to put in the math formula so you get the neat fractal picture.

You should pick a different example--if there is one.
Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 02:13 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 05:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Ah fuck, why I do even bother. While I don't expect HayseedJawbone or PrettyPleaseBabyJeebus to have the capacity to appreciate my responses, some others here will. ... Guess that's good enough for Girly.

(06-03-2013 03:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Where does the universe store all the information required to create the specific reality you exist in?

Quite possibly entirely on its surface with the interior being completely empty and void: Holographic principle.

Girlyman Im not sure if I should bother because I'm not sure you have the capacity to appreciate the work of Emmy Noether.

Aww...Fuck! lets give you the benefit of doubt.

Noether's Theorem

It's a much better explaination(at least for conservations laws) than the Holographic principle.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 02:24 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 06:39 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  The second question isn't fair, though -- you're equivocating the word "information". You're trying to make it sound like their had to be a blueprint for the universe like there is for your typical house. The universe was formed from chaos (like a cavern or a forest, for example) and thus didn't need "information" to plan its creation. The laws that set up how the universe works simply happened to be, and our hindsight bias makes us think about how perfect it all came out... to use the forest example again, you may marvel at how all of the trees seem to be roughly a uniform height, but nobody planned it that way... you're simply looking at it in a way that ignores the randomness, focusing on tree height rather than the uneven spacing of trees or the non-uniform look when examined up close.

The bolded portion is just an assertion. As far as I can tell none of that has been shown to be demonstrably true. Further, even if the universe formed from chaos it doesn't necessarily follow that it did not need information.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 02:31 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Relativity is hardly logical.

I stopped reading after this first sentence because the FAIL was just too great.

If realtivity was not logical as you suggest, It would not be accepted today. You don't know a whole lot about science do you?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 02:37 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 07:56 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As far as the notion of stored information. No
There are no blueprints storing information within matter.

How then, is it possible that two colliding electrons can create a proton? "They just do" is a lazy answer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-03-2013, 04:19 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 04:34 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  How then, is it possible that two colliding electrons can create a proton? "They just do" is a lazy answer.
And "I don't know." is currently the only intellectually honest answer.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: