Are there laws independent of the universe?
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07-03-2013, 04:31 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:19 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  How then, is it possible that two colliding electrons can create a proton? "They just do" is a lazy answer.
And "I don't know." is currently the only intellectual honest answer.
But knowledge begins by asking questions like, "how do the electrons "know" how to make a proton(and by extension everything else)?"
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07-03-2013, 04:39 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But knowledge begins by asking questions like, "how do the electrons "know" how to make a proton(and by extension everything else)?"
Sure, I don't dispute that. What I'm saying is that we will have to do a lot more research until we can reach an answer to questions of this nature.

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07-03-2013, 04:46 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But knowledge begins by asking questions like, "how do the electrons "know" how to make a proton(and by extension everything else)?"
Sure, I don't dispute that. What I'm saying is that we will have to do a lot more research until we can reach an answer to questions of this nature.
Agreed, but what is wrong with exploring the ideal that intellect is a fundamental quality of reality?
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07-03-2013, 04:53 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Agreed, but what is wrong with exploring the ideal that intellect is a fundamental quality of reality?
I don't think that there's anything wrong with that since speculation is an essential part of the scientific method. What matters at the end of the day, however, is whether or not your hypothesis can be tested and whether or not the available evidence supports it.

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07-03-2013, 06:40 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 02:24 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 06:39 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  The second question isn't fair, though -- you're equivocating the word "information". You're trying to make it sound like their had to be a blueprint for the universe like there is for your typical house. The universe was formed from chaos (like a cavern or a forest, for example) and thus didn't need "information" to plan its creation. The laws that set up how the universe works simply happened to be, and our hindsight bias makes us think about how perfect it all came out... to use the forest example again, you may marvel at how all of the trees seem to be roughly a uniform height, but nobody planned it that way... you're simply looking at it in a way that ignores the randomness, focusing on tree height rather than the uneven spacing of trees or the non-uniform look when examined up close.

The bolded portion is just an assertion. As far as I can tell none of that has been shown to be demonstrably true. Further, even if the universe formed from chaos it doesn't necessarily follow that it did not need information.
You're right, I took this for a given because forests have arisen within our lifetimes (such as those made for paper farming) and nobody that we're aware of mapped out how they would grow. Because they aren't made with blueprints that we can examine, they look as random as a dartboard with big wooden darts thrown from above. We can't find a pattern in their growth, therefore they are chaotic by definition.

But to assume the opposite, that things appearing random are not, is begging the question. You have to start with the assumption that randomness only looks random, because it is unproven (and probably unproveable) that there is order and/or design to everything.

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07-03-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:If God exists, He can be proven through cause and effect. There's ought to be no need to try to prove Him through silly little word games. Besides, even if the conclusion were true it would only be evidence of "a god or gods", not your God.
Okay, what cause made the Big Bang singularity expand? What cause made the singularity that became our current universe?
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07-03-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 06:40 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 02:24 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The bolded portion is just an assertion. As far as I can tell none of that has been shown to be demonstrably true. Further, even if the universe formed from chaos it doesn't necessarily follow that it did not need information.
You're right, I took this for a given because forests have arisen within our lifetimes (such as those made for paper farming) and nobody that we're aware of mapped out how they would grow. Because they aren't made with blueprints that we can examine, they look as random as a dartboard with big wooden darts thrown from above. We can't find a pattern in their growth, therefore they are chaotic by definition.

But to assume the opposite, that things appearing random are not, is begging the question. You have to start with the assumption that randomness only looks random, because it is unproven (and probably unproveable) that there is order and/or design to everything.
Forest don't look random to me. The fact that trees grow upright is a pattern itself. You can describe the growth of a tree using fractal geometry. I strongly disagree with your claim that forests are chaotic systems.
Further I am not sure of what your point is. Are you claiming chaotic systems are devoid of information?
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07-03-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 07:53 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:If God exists, He can be proven through cause and effect. There's ought to be no need to try to prove Him through silly little word games. Besides, even if the conclusion were true it would only be evidence of "a god or gods", not your God.
Okay, what cause made the Big Bang singularity expand? What cause made the singularity that became our current universe?
Our understanding of the physical nature of the universe breaks down at the origin of the universe. Meaning that causation may not apply. Ergo, the universe may not have a cause. You are asking irrelevant questions, but even if you were, adding a supernatural force to the equation adds in an unknown that does nothing to help answer any questions.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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07-03-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 02:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 06:40 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're right, I took this for a given because forests have arisen within our lifetimes (such as those made for paper farming) and nobody that we're aware of mapped out how they would grow. Because they aren't made with blueprints that we can examine, they look as random as a dartboard with big wooden darts thrown from above. We can't find a pattern in their growth, therefore they are chaotic by definition.

But to assume the opposite, that things appearing random are not, is begging the question. You have to start with the assumption that randomness only looks random, because it is unproven (and probably unproveable) that there is order and/or design to everything.
Forest don't look random to me. The fact that trees grow upright is a pattern itself. You can describe the growth of a tree using fractal geometry. I strongly disagree with your claim that forests are chaotic systems.
Further I am not sure of what your point is. Are you claiming chaotic systems are devoid of information?
Chaos does not mean "no pattern." Chaos means it can't be predicted, only observed. We can make approximations using our best understanding, but not true predictions.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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07-03-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
What a stupid, idiotic thread. The question is patetically ignoant of Syatems Theory. Any individual element or participant in a system does not have to "know" anything about the stsem in which it is simply an element.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory
More crap from the ignorant, uneducated theist trolls.

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