Are there laws independent of the universe?
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07-03-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:Our understanding of the physical nature of the universe breaks down at the origin of the universe. Meaning that causation may not apply. Ergo, the universe may not have a cause. You are asking irrelevant questions, but even if you were, adding a supernatural force to the equation adds in an unknown that does nothing to help answer any questions.
And now we're at my point. Ergo, the universe may not have a cause and it also may have a cause. And adding a supernatural force to instigate the Big Bang or Creatio ex Nihilo or whatever you pick does a heckuva lot to answer questions--especially if you understand that before the universe and light, there is no linear time and that God exists outside the universe and outside linear time. Your finite concepts of eternity beggar the reality IMHO.
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07-03-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 02:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 07:53 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, what cause made the Big Bang singularity expand? What cause made the singularity that became our current universe?
Our understanding of the physical nature of the universe breaks down at the origin of the universe. Meaning that causation may not apply. Ergo, the universe may not have a cause. You are asking irrelevant questions, but even if you were, adding a supernatural force to the equation adds in an unknown that does nothing to help answer any questions.
It is of course correct that our physics break down at Planck densities but that isn't true of logic. Citing a lack of understanding of physics under certain circumstances isn't a compelling argument that it is logically possible causation may not apply.
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07-03-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Sorry, having trouble understanding you. Causation may apply or may not apply, right? I understand those here who say there is no proof there is a God; I also understand no one on these forums has proof there isn't, right?

Numerics in the combined Old and New Testaments

Computers have been used to analyse the text of the entire Bible, in the original languages. It should be noted that if even one word were deleted, changed or added, anywhere in Scripture, then most numeric patterns would disappear.

1.The number of words in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
2.The number of words that begin with a vowel divide evenly by seven.
3.The number of words that begin with a consonant divide evenly by seven.
4.The number of words that begin with each letter of the language’s alphabet divide evenly by seven.
5.The number of words that occur more than once divide evenly by seven.
6.The number of words that occur only once divide evenly by seven.
7.The number of words that occur in only one form divide evenly by seven.
8.The number of words that occur in more than one form divide evenly by seven.
9.The number of words that are nouns divide evenly by seven.
10.The number of words that are not nouns divide evenly by seven.
11.The number of letters in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
12.The number of letters that are vowels divide evenly by seven.
13.The number of letters that are consonants divide evenly by seven.
14.The number of proper names divide evenly by seven.
15.The number of male proper names divide evenly by seven.
16.The number of female proper names divide evenly by seven.
17.The total numeric value of all the words divide evenly by seven.
18.The number of words that are found in only one book of the Bible divide evenly by seven.
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07-03-2013, 04:10 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 03:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sorry, having trouble understanding you. Causation may apply or may not apply, right? I understand those here who say there is no proof there is a God; I also understand no one on these forums has proof there isn't, right?

Numerics in the combined Old and New Testaments

Computers have been used to analyse the text of the entire Bible, in the original languages. It should be noted that if even one word were deleted, changed or added, anywhere in Scripture, then most numeric patterns would disappear.

1.The number of words in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
2.The number of words that begin with a vowel divide evenly by seven.
3.The number of words that begin with a consonant divide evenly by seven.
4.The number of words that begin with each letter of the language’s alphabet divide evenly by seven.
5.The number of words that occur more than once divide evenly by seven.
6.The number of words that occur only once divide evenly by seven.
7.The number of words that occur in only one form divide evenly by seven.
8.The number of words that occur in more than one form divide evenly by seven.
9.The number of words that are nouns divide evenly by seven.
10.The number of words that are not nouns divide evenly by seven.
11.The number of letters in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
12.The number of letters that are vowels divide evenly by seven.
13.The number of letters that are consonants divide evenly by seven.
14.The number of proper names divide evenly by seven.
15.The number of male proper names divide evenly by seven.
16.The number of female proper names divide evenly by seven.
17.The total numeric value of all the words divide evenly by seven.
18.The number of words that are found in only one book of the Bible divide evenly by seven.
If it was found that the same coincidences(or something similiar) existed in a work of Shakespeare would you believe that work to be divinely inspired?
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07-03-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:If it was found that the same coincidences(or something similiar) existed in a work of Shakespeare would you believe that work to be divinely inspired?
1. Name a book with similar probabilites (where the above "&" coincidences were estimated to approach 1 in a googol. 2. Where did Shakespeare claim divine inspiration? There are not that many religious texts to claim it, it should be fairly simple to review them all and sort everything out. Smile
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07-03-2013, 05:04 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:57 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:If it was found that the same coincidences(or something similiar) existed in a work of Shakespeare would you believe that work to be divinely inspired?
1. Name a book with similar probabilites (where the above "&" coincidences were estimated to approach 1 in a googol. 2. Where did Shakespeare claim divine inspiration? There are not that many religious texts to claim it, it should be fairly simple to review them all and sort everything out. Smile
You didn't cite the claim so I am skeptical of it on its face. However even if the claim were verified I don't think I would have a hard time finding enough coincidences in any sufficiently large work that added up to 1 chance in some improbable number. I'm not going to take the time to write a computer program to mine shakespear to prove you wrong so take what I say as just an opinion.
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07-03-2013, 05:33 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 04:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 04:19 AM)Vosur Wrote:  And "I don't know." is currently the only intellectual honest answer.
But knowledge begins by asking questions like, "how do the electrons "know" how to make a proton(and by extension everything else)?"
"How do electrons know" is just a stupid question. Rephrase it, please.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-03-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 03:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sorry, having trouble understanding you. Causation may apply or may not apply, right? I understand those here who say there is no proof there is a God; I also understand no one on these forums has proof there isn't, right?

Numerics in the combined Old and New Testaments

Computers have been used to analyse the text of the entire Bible, in the original languages. It should be noted that if even one word were deleted, changed or added, anywhere in Scripture, then most numeric patterns would disappear.

1.The number of words in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
2.The number of words that begin with a vowel divide evenly by seven.
3.The number of words that begin with a consonant divide evenly by seven.
4.The number of words that begin with each letter of the language’s alphabet divide evenly by seven.
5.The number of words that occur more than once divide evenly by seven.
6.The number of words that occur only once divide evenly by seven.
7.The number of words that occur in only one form divide evenly by seven.
8.The number of words that occur in more than one form divide evenly by seven.
9.The number of words that are nouns divide evenly by seven.
10.The number of words that are not nouns divide evenly by seven.
11.The number of letters in the vocabulary divide evenly by seven.
12.The number of letters that are vowels divide evenly by seven.
13.The number of letters that are consonants divide evenly by seven.
14.The number of proper names divide evenly by seven.
15.The number of male proper names divide evenly by seven.
16.The number of female proper names divide evenly by seven.
17.The total numeric value of all the words divide evenly by seven.
18.The number of words that are found in only one book of the Bible divide evenly by seven.

So, does this numeric patterning remain consistent for every version of The Bible that has ever been printed? I somehow doubt it. Please remember that whichever version that these numbers allegedly refer to is the product of centuries of editing and translating by men from the scrolls that were chosen to be included in the compilation in the first place. Perhaps a recent editor had a fixation with the number seven and put forth the extra effort for such wackiness.

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07-03-2013, 09:28 PM
Are there laws independent of the universe?
Also, I smell fudge (factors).

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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07-03-2013, 11:49 PM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(07-03-2013 02:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 06:40 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're right, I took this for a given because forests have arisen within our lifetimes (such as those made for paper farming) and nobody that we're aware of mapped out how they would grow. Because they aren't made with blueprints that we can examine, they look as random as a dartboard with big wooden darts thrown from above. We can't find a pattern in their growth, therefore they are chaotic by definition.

But to assume the opposite, that things appearing random are not, is begging the question. You have to start with the assumption that randomness only looks random, because it is unproven (and probably unproveable) that there is order and/or design to everything.
Forest don't look random to me. The fact that trees grow upright is a pattern itself. You can describe the growth of a tree using fractal geometry. I strongly disagree with your claim that forests are chaotic systems.
Further I am not sure of what your point is. Are you claiming chaotic systems are devoid of information?

There you go, using that weasel word "information" again. I'm claiming that chaotic systems show a lack of design. While forests may not look random to you, the unpredictability of their growth is what makes them chaos. I even linked to a definition of the word in the dictionary so that you'd understand what chaos means... it means a lack of predictability. I'd love to know what you think "information" means... if you define it, I'm pretty sure I can quote you from this thread using it in a way that doesn't fit the definition you provide.

I'm not aware of any fractal geometry that can map out what a tree will look like before it grows, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing it. I'd be even more interested in seeing how a forest's growth can be modeled, seeing the evidence myself that all forests do not grow identically (which would suggest a pattern). I'd be most interested in seeing the evidence that any single tree is modeled in a way to fulfill God's plan, which is the implied reason that God would have any interest in having direct involvement with a tree's growth.

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