Are there laws independent of the universe?
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08-03-2013, 01:24 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 03:37 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I won't touch the chair example or whether God is on the discussion table. My point is what you just said, that A or not-A is limited to this universe. Ergo, it is not a law independent of this universe, which is what this thread is about.
Your answer doesn't address the universality of A/Not A... I'm also waiting for another scholar to tell us what parts of relativity are "illogical".
Indeed, I did not address its universality. I addressed not whether it is true everywhere in the universe, but the question of whether it is INDEPENDENT of the universe. Anything more would have been off-topic.

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08-03-2013, 02:29 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
Quote:"If you bang two electrons together with enough energy, you produce protons. If there are no independent laws, then all the properties of protons must somehow be 'known' by the electrons. By extension every elementary particle must carry around enough information to produce the entire universe. I find that difficult to believe " - Alan Guth

Besides the question in the title, I has another one to ask.
Where does the universe store all the information required to create the specific reality you exist in?

Depends on what definition of Universe you are using here.. One definition defines the Universe as the totality of everything that exists, or as existence itself to which is the sum total of everything.. So are the laws independent? Can laws exist without being a part of the Universe? ... Also, information is dependent on how you define that as well. Hence, do not all things contain information and have information to offer? Do not all things themselves represent information? It something had no informational value, or structure to offer, would it then not be nothing at all? Hence non-existent?..
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08-03-2013, 03:58 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(08-03-2013 02:29 AM)TheJackal Wrote:  
Quote:"If you bang two electrons together with enough energy, you produce protons. If there are no independent laws, then all the properties of protons must somehow be 'known' by the electrons. By extension every elementary particle must carry around enough information to produce the entire universe. I find that difficult to believe " - Alan Guth

Besides the question in the title, I has another one to ask.
Where does the universe store all the information required to create the specific reality you exist in?

Depends on what definition of Universe you are using here.. One definition defines the Universe as the totality of everything that exists, or as existence itself to which is the sum total of everything.. So are the laws independent? Can laws exist without being a part of the Universe? ... Also, information is dependent on how you define that as well. Hence, do not all things contain information and have information to offer? Do not all things themselves represent information? It something had no informational value, or structure to offer, would it then not be nothing at all? Hence non-existent?..
That bolded part, sounds like a definition of reality. I think Guth is using the word universe to mean the physical world. If we were talking about a virtual world, information we know exist but can't identify would be existing in the underlying code.

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08-03-2013, 05:04 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(06-03-2013 03:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  "If you bang two electrons together with enough energy, you produce protons. If there are no independent laws, then all the properties of protons must somehow be 'known' by the electrons. By extension every elementary particle must carry around enough information to produce the entire universe. I find that difficult to believe " - Alan Guth

Besides the question in the title, I has another one to ask.
Where does the universe store all the information required to create the specific reality you exist in?
Outside this universe, yes. Read about imaginary time and real time - that's the first example I can think of where something is independent of our universe yet has its own equivalent within our universe.

As for information, it's stored in bits. Read about the Information Paradox if you want to know more. Or you can delve into quantum mechanics if you really want the whole picture.

Never assume science doesn't have an answer.

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08-03-2013, 05:13 AM
RE: Are there laws independent of the universe?
(08-03-2013 05:04 AM)Sceptical Prophet Wrote:  
(06-03-2013 03:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  "If you bang two electrons together with enough energy, you produce protons. If there are no independent laws, then all the properties of protons must somehow be 'known' by the electrons. By extension every elementary particle must carry around enough information to produce the entire universe. I find that difficult to believe " - Alan Guth
As for information, it's stored in bits. Read about the Information Paradox if you want to know more. Or you can delve into quantum mechanics if you really want the whole picture.
I've looked at information theory and understand that smallest unit of information is the bit. How many bits of information can an electron store?

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