Are we all one?
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20-10-2011, 07:14 PM
RE: Are we all one?
(20-10-2011 06:50 PM)Hamata k Wrote:  Okay. I came up with this idea in my spare time and your telling me that it has actual evidence to support it?.................WTF!? Wait! then that means that.....oh crap. long story I won't tell it now but I'll say that some really messed up stuff happened tht links directly to that involving two friends, a car accident, about 20 miles and me.
Now I'm not going to sleep tonight Sad

No im not saying there is evidence to support it..........Im simply joining dots together, I could be completly wrong.

What I will add though is me and my life long best friend are very very close. There has been times when I have known (dunno how) that he is in trouble and I have rang him to comfort him.

A bit like what twins experience I imagine.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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20-10-2011, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2011 10:37 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Are we all one?
(20-10-2011 09:27 AM)Hamata k Wrote:  The thought that we are all actually one is a very confusing subject that hasn't had much discussion because trying to find someone else who understands it is difficult (believe me I've tried).

There are some of us here anticipating that discussion.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-10-2011, 10:46 PM
RE: Are we all one?
One what? Consciousness? I don't see how it is possible there is not a collective consciousness, but isn't that a philosophical issue? And how is this creationism, which is evil, time-wasting nonsense, if there's science involved?

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22-10-2011, 07:22 PM
RE: Are we all one?
(21-10-2011 10:46 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  One what? Consciousness? I don't see how it is possible there is not a collective consciousness, but isn't that a philosophical issue?

Me neither. ... other than solipsism which just feels wrong to me but has also thus far proven to be irrefutable.

(21-10-2011 10:46 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And how is this creationism, which is evil, time-wasting nonsense, if there's science involved?

Well, if conscious observation is responsible for creation ...

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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22-10-2011, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2011 08:43 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Are we all one?
(22-10-2011 07:22 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-10-2011 10:46 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  One what? Consciousness? I don't see how it is possible there is not a collective consciousness, but isn't that a philosophical issue?

Me neither. ... other than solipsism which just feels wrong to me but has also thus far proven to be irrefutable.

(21-10-2011 10:46 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And how is this creationism, which is evil, time-wasting nonsense, if there's science involved?

Well, if conscious observation is responsible for creation ...
Solipsism is Incomplete - a little bit of overlap from our other discussion - but it's just me and my Gwynnies here in Phoenix, and I'm up to thinking tao might be dark energy. Big Grin

The "ultimate answer" may lie within, but without consideration of without, it ends up being more of an "ultimate wank." That other stuff better not be no more "many worlds" nonsense... Tongue

I'm gonna check it out. But I don't have a "measurement problem" because observation requires energy. Wink

I scoped it. Lanza sounds like he's on to something. Wink

Which still makes it science and not creationism. Big Grin

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22-10-2011, 09:32 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2011 10:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Are we all one?
(22-10-2011 08:38 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Solipsism is Incomplete

Solipsism is both closed and complete. What bothers me is that I have been unable to refute it even though in my gut I know it is wrong. Only conclusion I can draw is that logical refutation ain't all it's cracked up to be, it don't live up to its press.

(22-10-2011 08:38 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The "ultimate answer" may lie within, but without consideration of without, it ends up being more of an "ultimate wank."

I like it, but I'm not at all convinced that it's all not just some "ultimate wank".

(22-10-2011 08:38 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Which still makes it science and not creationism. Big Grin

Yeah, well we're not library scientists here worried about proper categorization of threads into forums. Threads kinda just come and go and meander about however we wander through them. It's no biggie.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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30-10-2011, 09:06 PM
RE: Are we all one?
Well I reckon you peeps are right......maybe this does belong in philosophy???

Its hard for me to rip all this shit out of my head and use inert words (inert as in I put meaning in them in writing and you put your own meaning to it when you read) to describe my thoughts so I will try to keep it as simple as possible

Quantum physics seems to indicate that unless there is an observer than everything is merely probability (something our limited minds have concepted...probability)

I did originally think you could seprate the two (universe and Consciousness) to study them independently to reach new thinking but like Biocentrism (life creates the universe rather than the other way around) to me that poses the "chicken or the egg" theory. I cant seperate the two and because of that I cant imagine one coming before the other.

Shit this is tough to explain.

Ok......keeping it simple........ basicly I see the Universe (on a quantum level) as the vehicle we use to mooch through "existence".........in that regards straight away we are all "one" and are even.

Without the quantum soup we wouldnt be able to observe.....but what are "we" and where do "we" originate from.......tracing it back far enough scientists reckon everything (matter with the space in between removed) when condensed is probably the size of a pea.....and that EVERYTHING came from this one, although small but mammoth object (more paradoxs :huhSmile

Its obv just a theory but if proved then wouldnt that say we are all one as we all originate from the one source???

Heres another paradox.......if something could "observe" without "creating" (just watch things as our eyes see them....NOT how our brains percieve) then what would it be seeing??? Would it be seeing matter slowly condensed to a vibration from a group consciousness of "observers"......as it emotionlessly and without logic nor sense of self just watched???

As the great Robert Anton Wilson (RIP) said we all have our own "reality tunnels" and it is these tunnels that seperate us from everything else........this sense of "self" that thinks it is a unique and seperate identity and even egotistically seperate from the universe.

I struggle getting my thoughts into words but I hope ive given some food for thought and I look forward to any posts that can help me think down as many routes as infinitly possible.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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31-10-2011, 10:45 AM
 
RE: Are we all one?
(30-10-2011 09:06 PM)bemore Wrote:  I did originally think you could seprate the two (universe and Consciousness) to study them independently to reach new thinking but like Biocentrism (life creates the universe rather than the other way around) to me that poses the "chicken or the egg" theory. I cant seperate the two and because of that I cant imagine one coming before the other.

OK, bemore, you asked for it.

Being a Physicist, I often talk to my wife, who is a writer, about Physics.

When I mentioned the lower limit of examinable time after the Big Bang (the Planck time), and the hypothesis of a possible BIG CRUNCH, she surprised me with a very authentic-sounding description of what happened BEFORE!

I think it sort of belongs here, if for no other reason, some fun.

"Creationism" is the perfect place for it!

PS. She is as 'devout' an atheist as I am, just in case someone is tempted to misunderstand this writing! Big Grin


****** LONG POST WARNING ******

TEN TO THE MINUS FOURTY-THIRD OF A SECOND
By Vera Zatamon

I...

... feel.

Mass, pressure. Matter. I contain and encompass matter as it also consists of an confines me.

Awareness. Thought. Words.

I am. I exist.

Outside Self is Void. I have Sight and yet I do not see. There is nothing to see. There is Nothing. Darkness. Infinity.

I am the only Mind.

Has it always been so?

No. I remember. Before eternity, I was and yet not I: different, less. Alone, as now, but not bereft as now, for I did not then contemplate eternal solitude. Because I expected... Did I expect, or merely intuit? I hoped for Another. I remember waiting. Countless eons of waiting. And then, and finally, the Other came.

Whence? From nothingness?

Infinity was different then: not empty. There was Chaos, not Void. Light, as well as Darkness. Dimension, distance. It was good, I think. It was out of Reality the Other came. To meet me.

We knew. Not immediately, at first glance: we began in mutual ignorance which nonetheless contained a sweet familiarity. We gave and received thought, recognition. And recognizing, loved. And loving, embraced. That embrace included everything: I, the Other, the universe merged - into the One which is the present I.

And there was sleep and waking: a Cycle.

Loneliness.

I wake to sorrow. Loss. It is not good.

I desire an end to loneliness. I wish that consummation once again, even if sleep must follow.

Do I have Choice? Is it possible to alter what is?

If I have the attribute of preference, surely choice, too, is in my constitution. That which I am capable of wanting, I should be capable of attaining. Matter can be felt: does it follow that matter can also be affected?

To whom do I speak? No answer. Am I addressing only myself? Or Thee, my unknown friend - mate, companion, completion - for whom I so yearn; who must come to me in the fullness of time.

There is no time, only eternity. Yet I remember what has been and question what may be. I have words of time: now, always, before, hereafter. That which is possible to name is possible.

In Time, there can be Motion. Motion is change.

I can conceive of Time. I am therefore able to engender Motion. I contain all that is capable of movement. If I move, everything changes. If I stretch, matter must expand. If I shrug, this dense and heavy mass will shift, fall away and free me of its burden.

Freedom from, I understand. But free to... what?

Matter is the fabric of my being. In disrupting it, should I also derange myself? Will there be Pain added to my bereavement?

Can I bear it?

If matter dissipates in randomness, will Mind also dissolve in Chaos? Are my thoughts a function of my substance or something apart, transcendent? Would identity, spirit continue beyond extrication from Mass?

I have slept and awakened. After the Consummation and the Sleep, I am in possession of my faculties: self-awareness, thought, sensation, power. Is it then possible for me to cease?

I am all, yet I do not know all.

I cannot know my limits, but by testing them.

Death.

This is a concept more abstruse than Time, more fearful than Pain, fully as awesome as eternity. I do not want to die. Am I sufficiently unhappy to attempt change and risk annihilation?

Life is Order. If I am to survive... if my mind is to remain intact through a rearrangement of matter, that rearrangement must be founded upon a Plan. If mind is, as I have postulated, truly distinct from matter and has pre-eminence, then...

Will.

If I am able to impose my will upon matter, then...

I can order Chaos, separate light from darkness, lift being out of nothingness. I can organize matter; divide it into parts, portions, particles: I can build from it, mould it, fashion it according to my need. With the power of my Word, I can...

Create.

Out of matter I can call forth Life, mind, sentience - an entity: a companion. Would that be good? Is that my preference?

Yes!

I shall form a likeness of myself, breathe life into it, and thus create a man. But first, I should prepare him room. Yes, I shall put a great disc into space, a firm rock for the man to stand upon, overarched by a heaven, in which I shall hang a dazzling golden fire for Day and dimmed lanterns at Night. By these lights shall man know the passage of Time. I shall smooth the ground at his feet and cover it with soft vegetation and make the breeze that touches his skin fragrant and warm - for this creature will be fine and fragile, in need of tender care. I shall make beasts to browse upon the land and flying things to populate the air: birds, fowls, butterflies. There shall be water, and to enliven the waters, I shall create fishes, serpents, tortoises - a wondrous diversity of animals that walk and swim and slither and flutter. And all these things, yea, even the grasses and the trees, shall be fruitful and multiply. When I have set Man in the midst of this garden, I shall make another of his kind, for it is not good to be alone, as I am. I shall give Man dominion over the beasts and the fowls and fishes and let him name the creatures that dwell upon the earth. For sustenance, he shall have figs and honey, corn and milk, all that is good to eat. I shall create him - them - with eyes to see and senses to delight in my bounty. Then I shall teach him my bidding, that he should please me. I shall love my creature - and the woman, also, though perhaps not so much. They will never know hunger, fear, pain or grief. They shall be happy always, and good.

Is it enough?

No. To be a fit companion for me, man must have mind separate from my Mind and will that is free of my Will. I shall give him an attribute akin to my own: the power to distinguish good from not good. Evil. Yes, I shall put an evil thing in the garden: one tree, the fruit of which will be forbidden, and allow the man and woman to decide their own fate. If they disobey and choose wrongly, I shall punish them. They shall know hardship: with the sweat of his brow will the man wrest his food from the earth; in pain will the woman bring forth her young. And having ensured the continuance of their kind, they shall die.

But, if I love them, to witness their suffering and death must surely hurt me also. I should prefer to save them, even if they incur my Wrath. I should open to them a way to appease me: some offering through which they and I may be reconciled. Disobedience, resulting in want, pain, loss of life, generation after generation - with yet a faint hope of life restored. The sojourn of mankind upon the earth thus would be endless drama, endlessly absorbing.

For them. And for me? A small uncertainty: will man succumb to the temptation I put in his path? If I wish it, how can he resist? And, having fallen, will he at last make restitution? If I supply the sacrifice and put the knife ready to hand, how can he fail? There is, after all, no real question. Poor mannikin! Such a being can never fill but a minute fraction of my vast loneliness.

Then I shall produce, not one creature, but many. Thousands, millions! Constellations of angels in samite raiment, with shining faces, who will sing in clarion voices and glorify and abide with me. Will that please me? For a while, I think. In the face of eternity, a very short while. All too soon, meek adoration would grow tedious. It would require passion, conflict, suspense to hold my attention. When the hymning palls, I can divide the angels into factions, sow acrimony; pit legion against legion, each with its named supreme commander: a Prince of Darkness, a Sun-king; a nurturing Mother, a Father of Lies; a champion of harmony and a defender of discord.

I can make Titans, daemons, incubi; spirits corporeal and spirits of aether. Deities who might, in their turn, create lesser beings. Tiny amusing sprites, ponderous juggernauts; chimerae and dragons; nightmares, monsters and faeries; life-forms composed entirely of stars, entities of trailing shifting, gas.... I can populate reality with so much Life that I shall never want for entertainment.

And yet...

Is it diversion that I seek? Or love?

Intimate with their every particle, originating all that drives them to action, could I ever find creatures truly pleasing? They would be capable of fear, of awe, of worship... but could they ever love me as I Love? Would I be less alone, though I fill a thousand thousand universes with beings so paltry? Though I create uncounted multitudes, I should continue solitary.

I desire, I want, I need, not imitations of my self, feeble reflections, playthings; not to manipulate fragments of cast-off matter, but to encounter Someone.

How?

Begin at the beginning.

Matter must, by its very nature, my Nature, contain: Order and Chaos, Dark and Light, Good and Evil, Being and Nothingness. If I disburden matter, it will move. Motion is change. The change brought about by such an upheaval might proceed in ways I have not willed; might produce results I cannot predict. If I set Everything in motion all at once, it may shatter into particules, divide and separate, collide and coalesce, repel and attract, resolve into elements: earth, air, water, fire and more, which I have not begun to name. Left to itself, what may matter achieve? Universe, universes, dimensions, bodies and spaces, world, worlds.... So many kinds of life may arise, unplanned, uncontrolled: flourish and fail; struggle and mature; live out their span and leave behind progeny that is like and unlike themselves. Somewhere, somewhen, a yet unguessed, unthought-of entity might form, know itself, crawl and walk and look up; understand and feel lonely and yearn - at last - for me, as I desire it. The one who comes out of Self but is non-Self, different: the Other. My companion, my completion.

Imagine!

No. I have imagined too much. I have imprinted words, forms, sentiments upon a portion of my fabric: predestined it to play out these conjectures. It cannot be destroyed. In wishing for mere entertainment, have I already doomed my most cherished purpose? Is the future tainted by this unworthy dream? Perhaps not: it was but a brief notion; little substance is compromised. Shall I set it apart, and keep the rest pure? Or shall I refrain from the last temptation?

I must think no more, lest my words influence all that begins, all that may evolve. I must not will, but only wait and hope.

Have I decided, then?

Yes. I shall, I must, attempt, not a created, ordered universe, but an unknowable event. I shall, I must, risk pain, diffraction, even the loss Consciousness. I shall, I must, chance everything, for Chance is the only possible means to the ultimate Good.

Then:

Let it be.
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31-10-2011, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2011 11:11 AM by bemore.)
RE: Are we all one?
Touching upon what you guys said about looking within........a few of my thoughts.

Is it simply our sense of self that keeps us seperate???

I have had some amazing journeys and matters of self realisation when I meditate I even once believe I managed to "expand" my conciousness to a sense of increasing infinity....however the feeling this gave me although exhilirating almost immediatley become quite frightening. I have not reached that plateau ever again and it is what I strive to get back too, which is again silly because I know if I look for it I will never find it.

On waking reflection though logic tries to reason to me that I am and was in those moments limited to my body and nervous system. So this sense of feeling and "oneness" may simply be an imagination of my mind....I cant rule that out just as much as I kinda know It wasnt. Its all very paradoxal ha ha.

I suppose on looking back I could hypothesis that we are one....

1: Within matter (all coming from the one point)
2: Within group consciouness (the experiments of group meditation and reduction of crime)

EDIT: Wow zat.....I can see why you married her Smile
Im gonna have to read that a few more times I think and let it all sink and mull over in my thoughts for today before I come back to it with some attempt at a reply ha ha....I wish I could expatiate on my feellings through writing in that way.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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31-10-2011, 02:12 PM
RE: Are we all one?
#1 This is not a theory, not even close.
#2 Religion cannot prove anything.
#3 NO. HELL NO, even.
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