Are we impacting our own evolution?
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22-05-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
[/quote]
I don't think you understand evolution.[/quote]

You're right I don't understand all the intricacies of Evolution. What I do understand is the most important concept.. Simple inputs can lead to Complex outputs overtime. The slow cheetah was always bound to die... that's what I'm saying.

Just as Evolution shoots down objections of 'Irreducibly Complex' things, through the proof of simple leading to complex.. I assert that where we are in this point in time is not the result of an 'Irreducibly Complex' series of events. Evolution lending precedent to my assertion.

There is no choices, just an illusion of choice. Predetermination.. We do no effect our own evolution in the way he was implying. We are a movie, albeit complex, but a movie nonetheless.. just a resultant of initial cause(Big Bang)
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22-05-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 08:22 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  You're right I don't understand all the intricacies of Evolution. What I do understand is the most important concept.. Simple inputs can lead to Complex outputs overtime. The slow cheetah was always bound to die... that's what I'm saying.

Just as Evolution shoots down objections of 'Irreducibly Complex' things, through the proof of simple leading to complex.. I assert that where we are in this point in time is not the result of an 'Irreducibly Complex' series of events. Evolution lending precedent to my assertion.

There is no choices, just an illusion of choice. Predetermination.. We do no effect our own evolution in the way he was implying. We are a movie, albeit complex, but a movie nonetheless.. just a resultant of initial cause(Big Bang)
But we all have the same DNA code language.
This suggests that we all have a common ancestor. We are related to fish, to plants, to fungus, to insects. They are all our cousins. We all started with the same input.
But we diverged and diverged and diverged be-it from existing in isolated "islands" or finding ourselves in different environments or having developed different lifestyles/cultures.
There is no seed or initial condition that results in what we have evolved into. Evolution is a continual process of random mutation coupled with survivability or adaptation to our changing environments.
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22-05-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
[quote
But we all have the same DNA code language.
This suggests that we all have a common ancestor. We are related to fish, to plants, to fungus, to insects. They are all our cousins. We all started with the same input.
But we diverged and diverged and diverged be-it from existing in isolated "islands" or finding ourselves in different environments or having developed different lifestyles/cultures.
There is no seed or initial condition that results in what we have evolved into. Evolution is a continual process of random mutation coupled with survivability or adaptation to our changing environments.
[/quote]

Perhaps I haven't made my opinion sufficiently clear, and I'm sorry for the confusion.

Let X represent a point in time of the universe

Big Bang => X1 => X2 => X3 => X4 => Now => X6 => X7

Evolution and its process that led to us typing here today is the resultant of what came before.. Starting with the Big Bang. There wasn't randomness, its cause and effect on such a large scale involving so many things we can't fathom it. Simple process inputs were already set in motion at the beginning that would inevitably result in you, me and everything else. Evolution is just a small scale example of this that we are interested in because of the desire to understand origin. What I'm implying is there is no freewill that we have controlling us, or directing our evolutionary process. We are on a preset path, although a very complex to understand path, but a path nonetheless paved by simple cause and effect interactions within this universe.
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22-05-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 08:54 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Perhaps I haven't made my opinion sufficiently clear, and I'm sorry for the confusion.

Let X represent a point in time of the universe

Big Bang => X1 => X2 => X3 => X4 => Now => X6 => X7

Evolution and its process that led to us typing here today is the resultant of what came before.. Starting with the Big Bang. There wasn't randomness, its cause and effect on such a large scale involving so many things we can't fathom it. Simple process inputs were already set in motion at the beginning that would inevitably result in you, me and everything else. Evolution is just a small scale example of this that we are interested in because of the desire to understand origin. What I'm implying is there is no freewill that we have controlling us, or directing our evolutionary process. We are on a preset path, although a very complex to understand path, but a path nonetheless paved by simple cause and effect interactions within this universe.
OK, I understand what you are saying now.
You are talking about determinism rather than evolution.

I agree that there is no such thing as free will. I agree that we are conscious observers under the illusion that our consciousness is free from the laws of physics thus free to make choices.

Where I differ from you is that I acknowledge that the universe only appears to be deterministic from the macro level but is really probabilistic from the micro level. That it is the micro level that is the foundation of the macro level.

If we were able to rewind time, back a billion years and then let is start over due to the probabilistic nature of quantum fluctuations, of atomic decay, of electron wave packets etc then we would see events play out differently from the first time. Evolution would play out differently. We would not get an exact replay. This is not due to "free will" but is due to the nature of the universe being probabilistic.
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22-05-2014, 09:18 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 09:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If we were able to rewind time, back a billion years and then let is start over due to the probabilistic nature of quantum fluctuations, of atomic decay, of electron wave packets etc then we would see events play out differently from the first time. Evolution would play out differently. We would not get an exact replay. This is not due to "free will" but is due to the nature of the universe being probabilistic.

I don't know much about the things you brought up here, but science has shown time and time again that what appears random might not necessarily be. These things could very well be true examples of a probabilistic nature, but could also be the result of not acknowledging/recognizing how everything interacts. Perhaps there is some x-factor we haven't discovered yet that.. Trippy

Anyways thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt Smile
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22-05-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(15-05-2014 10:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2014 10:10 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Plus there is the Law of unintended consequences. For every action at least 3 things that were not planned will happen as a result some good some indifferent some bad. So yes we are impacting our own evolution but in what ways we can't say completely.

Yabut, all of evolution has been unintended. Yes

Until now.
After the singularity human-machine beings will upload frequently periodically the latest genetic/immunolgic advances (as well as all the information that became available in the past 24 h) by plugging into "the network", and will benefit from the advances from the last 24 hours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Singularity_Is_Near
Drinking Beverage

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-05-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 09:18 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I don't know much about the things you brought up here, but science has shown time and time again that what appears random might not necessarily be. These things could very well be true examples of a probabilistic nature, but could also be the result of not acknowledging/recognizing how everything interacts. Perhaps there is some x-factor we haven't discovered yet that.. Trippy
Our understanding of quantum physics has been developing for around about 100 years, it makes better predictions than Classical physics.
Quantum physics relies on probability at its core. Without probability then stars wouldn't shine, covalent bonds wouldn't form, atoms wouldn't absorb or omit energy, the universe wouldn't expand, there wouldn't be vacuum energy, there wouldn't be a universe.
The uncertainty principle is a must, without uncertainty there would certainly be nothing.

At least, that is my take on it.
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22-05-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 09:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Our understanding of quantum physics has been developing for around about 100 years, it makes better predictions than Classical physics.
Quantum physics relies on probability at its core. Without probability then stars wouldn't shine, covalent bonds wouldn't form, atoms wouldn't absorb or omit energy, the universe wouldn't expand, there wouldn't be vacuum energy, there wouldn't be a universe.
The uncertainty principle is a must, without uncertainty there would certainly be nothing.

At least, that is my take on it.

I'll have to read up on it.. So much information to learn with so little time. Any recommendations?
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22-05-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 09:51 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I'll have to read up on it.. So much information to learn with so little time. Any recommendations?
There are a lot of books on quantum physics.

A couple I have enjoyed are:
"Absolutely Small: How Quantum Theory Explains Our Everyday World" by Michael Frayer was an excellent read. It gets technical and explains each atom and covalent bonds and the shape of atoms, molecules and orbitals. How you can workout which atoms can form bonds, whether those molecules will be magnetic or not, it explains why an electron can be at point A and then can be at point C without ever being able to be at point B. How a single photon or electron can interfere with itself. It explains how soap works, why there is no problem with eating cholesterol, it explains how trans fats are created and why your body can't process them. It explains why CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It explains why certain atoms are metals and others are not. It explains why certain substances conduct electricity and why they heat up.

"Quantum: Einstein, Bohr and the Great Debate About the Nature of Reality" by Manjit Kumar was also a fascinating read. But is more of a history book, explaining who the key players were in forming Quantum Theory. It talks much about their lives and what lead them down this path.
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23-05-2014, 08:00 AM
RE: Are we impacting our own evolution?
(22-05-2014 08:22 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  ...
There is no choices, just an illusion of choice. Predetermination.. We do no effect our own evolution in the way he was implying. We are a movie, albeit complex, but a movie nonetheless.. just a resultant of initial cause(Big Bang)

(22-05-2014 09:03 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
OK, I understand what you are saying now.
You are talking about determinism rather than evolution.

I agree that there is no such thing as free will. I agree that we are conscious observers under the illusion that our consciousness is free from the laws of physics thus free to make choices.

Where I differ from you is that I acknowledge that the universe only appears to be deterministic from the macro level but is really probabilistic from the micro level. That it is the micro level that is the foundation of the macro level.
...

Maybe I've got it wrong but I don't think that determinism = pre-determinism (fatalism).

... and depending on your definition of free-will... yes and/or no, to that.

If it just means the ability to choose (based on an ability to perform risk assessments), then yes to free-will.
But contra-causal, it ain't.

I'm swayed by Dennett's Compatibilism

Meanwhile, back to the OP regarding evolution of technology...

I blame those bastards who started banging rocks together.

Angry

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