Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
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31-05-2013, 12:54 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(30-05-2013 07:57 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(30-05-2013 07:22 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Lets go back to the barter system.

That worked well: You were paid for your works in a useful manner, and those who didn't contribute to society would soon begin dying off in droves because they'd have nothing to barter because they made no contributions.

Barter is still a monetary system and doesn't "solve" the problem.
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31-05-2013, 01:26 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(31-05-2013 12:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  So a group of trolls isn't trolling, one person annoying the group of trolls is a troll.

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31-05-2013, 05:30 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(31-05-2013 12:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  So a group of trolls isn't trolling, one person annoying the group of trolls is a troll.

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31-05-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(31-05-2013 05:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(31-05-2013 12:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  So a group of trolls isn't trolling, one person annoying the group of trolls is a troll.

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I'm gonna do the New Zealander thing here so bare with.
That picture is interesting. The sign while you can't fully read it says "Weta", as in Weta Workshop. They work with Peter Jackson on the lord of the rings and now the hobbit and they've done plenty of movies in between such as Avatar. Considering what's his face that directed Avatar and Titanic (can't believe I forgot his name ><) CAMERON! fuck yes, totally remembered that shit. Anyway, Mr Cameron lives in Wellington, well, the Wairarapa which are the hills just out of Wellington, for like 3months of the year or something. Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes, Cameron lives here so he's looking at doing some more movies so Weta workshop will likely help on those movies too.
ANYWAY, Weta Workshop is just down the road from me. I can probably see it from my dinning room window actually... nope, it's obscured by trees and shit.

What was this thread about again?

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31-05-2013, 06:23 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(31-05-2013 05:41 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  What was this thread about again?

Uh... dream interpretation? And btw, WHERE THE FUCK ARE MY COOKIES!!!!!!!!!!1111!!! lolz

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31-05-2013, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2013 09:06 AM by Nemo.)
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
(30-05-2013 07:22 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(30-05-2013 06:28 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Bingo.

But what alternatives to wages would you suggest anyway?

Lets go back to the barter system.

That worked well: You were paid for your works in a useful manner, and those who didn't contribute to society would soon begin dying off in droves because they'd have nothing to barter because they made no contributions.

For Odin sakes...

The barter system? That's somehow better than what we have now?

Each object's value is determined by it's cost, which is represented by money.

Without money, in what way would we measure the value of goods? One TV is worth 30 shirts, or 50 cans of corned beef, or 25 gallons of gas?

Value is subjective, so how do we apply value to objects when we sell them in the marketplace (or trade for them)? The value of a good may not meet the perceived value of an individual. For example: some people find Macs are worth the money they cost. Others believe Macs are overpriced (especially compared to the cheaper costs of competition). Because value is subjective, we must find an efficient way to give goods an objective value. We do this by determining supply and demand. Supply has to do with the number of goods that can be produced, where demand refers to the subjective values of those willing to buy the produced product. Without supply and demand, money holds no value. Why is all of this important? Because there's still a form of supply and demand, even in a barter system! It just works differently, as I'll explain.

So let's suppose I make furniture for a living. I need someone to fix my plumbing. I find a plumber, but he doesn't need any more furniture, so offering him furniture in exchange for his service is futile. My furniture holds no value to him. What he wants, instead, is a brand new suit. I have to find someone who has a brand new suit that the plumber wants, and hope they want to trade furniture for the suit.

I got the plumber a brand new suit. But, it's not to his particular taste. He wanted a suit from a different tailor. I'll be nice and pretend the plumber fixed my plumbing anyway.

As you can tell, this is a MAJOR pain in the ass. This is why we use money! We allow supply and demand to dictate the value of goods and services, while money is used to represent value. This way, I can just pay the plumber to fix my plumbing so he can buy his own suit.

Bartering is inconvenient and it would never be able to handle the large variety of objects we have today. I'm also certain we wouldn't be able to develop high quality goods using a bartering system.

----

But even if we use the bartering system, you're still working for others. Allow me to explain.

Let's suppose you make furniture and trade it for goods you need or want. You're STILL working so many hours a day to obtain goods!

Let's suppose you make furniture for a wage, by working for someone else. You're STILL working so many hours a day to obtain money so you can obtain goods!

In both cases, you're working for other people to provide you with goods and services you need and want.

---

I saw a few of your posts in another thread. You have this idea that there is no such thing as free-will for the proletariat (forgive me for using such terminology). You believe big corporations that sell soft drinks enslave people by brainwashing them. You believe people who work are a slave for the person who pays them for their work.

A world devoid of slavery, consistent to you definition of slavery, would require everyone to work only for themselves, because working for others is slavery. It would also require total censorship, for any material that suggests something would be considered brainwashing.
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31-05-2013, 09:13 AM
RE: Are you a slave if you can choose your master?
There ARE problems with our economic system. Worshipping at the altar of GROWTH ALWAYS FOREVER is the biggest one; finite resource supply + exponential growth in consumption = sooner or later we're totally fucked . Assessing the value of labour when only a tiny, tiny percentage of it is directly required to keep everyone alive fairly comfortably (like, on the order of minutes per person per day, in a developed country) is also problematic.

But the principle of compensation for labour through an abstract medium representing units of value? Just because it's not a gift economy doesn't make it slavery. And a gift economy is coercive anyway because some degree of obligation is the definition of a society.
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