Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
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03-04-2014, 05:03 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
In other words, are you a Christian because you believe in Christ, or do you believe in Christ because you are a Christian? Are you a Muslim because you believe in the teachings of Muhammad, or do you believe in the teachings of Muhammad because you are a Muslim? Are you Jewish because you believe in the law of Moses, or do you believe in the law of Moses because you are Jewish? And so on. Even, are you an atheist because you don't believe in any god, or do you not believe in any god because you are an atheist?

If someone looks at the surrounding universe from an open perspective, examines all kinds of evidence and concludes that the most accurate description of reality probably lies in the Bible, in the Quran, in the Torah, in some other scripture or in no ancient book whatsoever, I'm happy with that. I may not agree with their conclusions, but my perspective isn't necessarily more true than theirs.

But I sometimes find people who seem to define themselves, and thus behave, according to an ideology that someone else has told them. And that is not always good for everyone.

Fictional guy #1: Hello, I am English and I hate people from France because English people hate French people.
Fictional guy #2: Hello, I am French and I hate people from England because French people hate English people.

In my mind, they're both stupid and they hate each other because they're both stupid. But I'm not that intelligent myself, so I might be wrong.

I sometimes wonder, is it possible that people who believe in their favourite abstract notion because that is what other people in their communities do, and who often seem so afraid of exploring other perspectives, are afraid of somehow losing their identity? As in "I can't not believe in Jesus Christ because then I wouldn't be a true Christian". What do you think?

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03-04-2014, 05:07 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

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03-04-2014, 05:18 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel
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03-04-2014, 05:24 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Have you ever been in a Bible study or a religious environment where someone asks "What do we believe about x?". I think it was an Atheist Experience panellist who said that asking this question was a good sign that you don't know what belief really means. Communities don't have beliefs, people do. And if you must defer to your community about some important thing you believe then you are missing the point of what that word means.

I know people who are locked into bigoted homophobic stances because they feel that is what a True Christian™ is supposed to believe. I've seen people on this forum argue the indefensible because if they truly are a Christian they must believe that God's actions were good in this or that context. I think I understand what you are getting at.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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03-04-2014, 05:31 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington Wrote:We always have been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be, detested in France.

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03-04-2014, 05:58 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:31 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington Wrote:We always have been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be, detested in France.





I love the French language. I have sampled every language, French is my favourite - fantastic language, especially to curse with. Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculé de ta mère. It's like wiping your arse with silk, I love it. -The Merovingian

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03-04-2014, 06:02 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

The French produced Denis Diderot, Stendhal, Voltaire, Camus, Descartes, Sartre, Bleriot etc etc.

I like the French. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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03-04-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 06:02 AM)Banjo Wrote:  The French produced Denis Diderot, Stendhal, Voltaire, Camus, Descartes, Sartre, Bleriot etc etc.

I like the French. Smile

To say nothing of Antoine Marie Jean-Baptiste Roger, comte de Saint Exupéry.
(if you're a Frenchie, you can have a girl name AND and boy name). Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-04-2014, 07:54 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello Hafnof, it is a pleasure to exchange views.

(03-04-2014 05:24 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Have you ever been in a Bible study or a religious environment where someone asks "What do we believe about x?".
Fortunately not. Although I had a Christian come up to me one day asking me if there were dinosaurs in the Bible. "How the fuck would I know?", I wondered. "I thought your evangelical mission was to tell me what the Bible's about, not the other way round."

(03-04-2014 05:24 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think it was an Atheist Experience panellist who said that asking this question was a good sign that you don't know what belief really means. Communities don't have beliefs, people do. And if you must defer to your community about some important thing you believe then you are missing the point of what that word means.

I know people who are locked into bigoted homophobic stances because they feel that is what a True Christian™ is supposed to believe. I've seen people on this forum argue the indefensible because if they truly are a Christian they must believe that God's actions were good in this or that context. I think I understand what you are getting at.
I find it saddening, but we're a very young species; I hope we will make it past the infantile stage of blind selfishness.

Thanks for your contribution to this thread. Have a great day.
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03-04-2014, 07:59 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:58 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I love the French language. I have sampled every language, French is my favourite - fantastic language, especially to curse with. Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculé de ta mère. It's like wiping your arse with silk, I love it. -The Merovingian
Cursing can be soothing in every fucking language :-)

Have you sampled every language? I'd like to do that, but there are far too many for me to even try :-(
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