Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-04-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Europe has had a shit load of very big wars happen on its mainland over the centuries... Usually they involved the British, French, Spanish, and Germans.

Until recently it was a tradition that every few decades or so we'd have a good scrap. But the last one got a bit out of hand, so we decided not to bother this time.

[img]

via GIPHY

[/img]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Sam's post
03-04-2014, 08:44 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2014 09:00 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 07:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  No.

I love it when people try to pigeon-hole others by what they don't believe. It always turns into a straw man. "Oh, you don't believe in '"The Supernatural"? So you're a Materialist and a Secular Humanist and a [ETA: Metaphysical Naturalist]...and a...and a....and you believe this and this and..."

"STFU, I just don't believe in fucking fairy tales."

Case in point, from our Friend Jeremy E. Walker on another site:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7809399-...st65178432

Quote:Jeremy E Walker
Junior Member

Quote:Originally Posted by quatona

No. And it would be irrelevant for the discussion at hand, anyway.


So much for arguments based on assumptions.
Atheists just donĀ“t believe in god(s).

Could you now get back to substantiating your empty assertions about atheists (or retract them), please?

If you are a metaphysical naturalist, you believe that the cosmos is all there is and all there ever will be a la Carl Sagan. i.e. a closed system.

If you believe that all that exists can be explained via natural processes acting on matter then you are a metaphysical naturalist.

I know you may not admit to this if you are. You may be one of the ones who shrinks from bearing any type of burden when it comes to defending your views.

That is your prerogative.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Taqiyya Mockingbird's post
03-04-2014, 08:53 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Ugh, I read way more of that than I should have.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Charis's post
03-04-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 08:53 PM)Charis Wrote:  Ugh, I read way more of that than I should have.

[Image: hF9E1B8F2]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Taqiyya Mockingbird's post
03-04-2014, 10:10 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2014 10:18 PM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello mate,

I see what you're driving at.
Someone may be born Christian, never really thought about it, they just subscribe to the beliefs, which you say is not cool. Alternatively, whether someone is born Christian (or any religion) as long as they have thought about it and arrived at their beliefs through sincerity, that's cool.

I see what you're saying but it is not remotely relevant to my position. I comfortably describe myself as an anti-theist in certain company. On here for example. I say it is not relevant because it is the belief system I feel morally obliged to counter, not the individuals which make its number. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may be interpreting 'truth' in a way I cannot agree with. .. You're from the your truth is not my truth camp if I'm not mistaken? Smile

To me, the word 'truth' in recent generations has gone through a metamorphic change in meaning and is used as a synonym for 'opinion'. In my view, this is not a good thing. 'Truth', means correct, accurate, factual etc. ... if you have two opposing world views, only one or neither can be the truth. It is impossible for both to be true. If it were just a case of 'this is my private belief system, everyone craic on with your life', I wouldn't mind. I'd hold a stance similar to yours but that's not how it is!

There are world views that make truth claims without any evidence, often contradictory to evidence available, yet on the back of these claims, decisions and actions occur in the real world. ... For example, children have their genitals mutilated, stem cell research is stopped, women have their rights negated, people are slaughtered for disagreeing or changing their minds. I could go on. Don't get me wrong mate. I don't claim to know definitively what the truth is but I'm certain in light of evidence we have, or lack of evidence on the part of the religious that humanity has requested for thousands of years with none produced, I can confidently say I know what isn't true!

Truth is very important to me, real truth, not opinion as its imposter! I say this because opinions based on unsupported world views have led to some very harrowing outcomes in the history of mankind!

Great thread, interesting angle!

P.S The French all smell funny too! Trust me, I know, I'm English! Laugh out load
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Monster_Riffs's post
04-04-2014, 04:22 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:31 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington Wrote:We always have been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be, detested in France.
Yawn
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2014, 11:19 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 11:29 AM)Magoo Wrote:  ...
If you believe in Christ, you are a Christian. If you don't believe in Christ, you are not a Christian. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe I'm Christ, because the whole point of a Christian is believing in Christ!
Hello Magoo, welcome back.

Please forgive me; I don't think I am finding the appropriate words to convey this idea. Although I do thank you for trying to understand it.

I am not questioning your point, believing in Jesus Christ and being a Christian do go together, just like playing golf and being a golfer. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, how can you be accurately described as a Christian? My point is not about that. My point is about which one is the cause and which one is the effect.

As we grow up, we have quite a tendency to take as truths whatever older people may tell us, especially those who we may view as authorities (our parents, our teachers, maybe a priest if our parents tell us we have to listen to him, etc.). That behaviour can be very valuable, because it enables us to learn from other people's past experiences, without the need to experience potentially dangerous situations ourselves.

If a person grows up in an environment where the majority of those perceived authorities keep telling him or her that he or she is a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Atheist/Whatever, there is a high probability that the person will take that as a truth and view him or herself as a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Atheist/Whatever, even before he or she understands concepts such as death, resurrection, virginity and so on. I get the impression that once a person views an ideology as part of their identity, it is very difficult that they will look at the surrounding universe from an open perspective; they will turn to the manual of instructions of their particular creed in order to be told what their opinion on certain subject should be. This would be the case of those who believe in Jesus Christ because they are Christians.

Alternatively, a person may grow up in an environment where the perceived authorities do not try to inoculate children with their opinions, and let children develop the skill of forming their own opinions. It is conceivable that some of those people may find enough answers in some sacred book to begin accepting the book as a source of truths, despite not having been told to do so by parents, teachers and other authorities. If one of those people concludes that the story of Jesus Christ, for example, is most likely to be true, and thus decides that he or she is a Christian, that would be a case of someone being a Christian because they believe in Jesus Christ.

Do you see the difference? I am not suggesting that you can be a Christian without believing in Jesus Christ, I am only wondering whether there are people who believe in Jesus Christ because they view themselves as Christians. And the same goes for every other religion; even for the lack of a religion.

And if you cannot see the difference, maybe I'm just talking bollocks, don't worry about it. I understand what you are saying, and I cannot see anything wrong with your argument.

In any case, I wish you a good weekend. Have fun.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2014, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2014 03:55 PM by living thing.)
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello again wazzel.

(03-04-2014 11:32 AM)wazzel Wrote:  My responce to DLJ's scarcast joke was a scarcastic joke. It was not ment for literal consumption.
If you say so.

(03-04-2014 11:32 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I really am a direct decent Acadian (Cajun).
It is good that you are a decent Acadian. I don't really care whether you are Acadian or not, but I like it when people are decent :-)

(03-04-2014 11:32 AM)wazzel Wrote:  I do not have it on me, but we (my aunt the family historian) has the records of how we get here.
What a shame, it probably is a fascinating story. I hope you'll remember asking her, next time you see her, so that you can maybe share some of the anecdotes in here, if you don't mind. I like reading stories about human beings doing stuff, they needn't be my direct family.

I don't know much about my direct ancestors beyond my grandparents, but I do know that there used to be a time when my living ancestors were fish. I know, because I still carry a few of their physical traits, such as my spinal chord.

(03-04-2014 11:32 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Is use 90%, in a loose way to represent mostly. So yes I identify with the Acadian - Cajun - French heritage. We are not all great, I know that. The comment was tounge in cheek.
Yes, it had to be full of irony, because we all know that people from France can be as much of a bastard as people from everywhere else, don't we? And other people from France can be as great as people from anywhere else on this planet. The logical conclusion? I doesn't matter where you're from; that is an irrelevant piece of information.

You do realise that you, just like every other human being alive today, and those who have lived before us, are of African descent, don't you? The bones of the earliest H. sapiens found so far were found in the patch of land that we now call Ethiopia. Yes, some of their descendents spent a number of generations on the patch of land we now call France before some of their descendents, in turn, moved to the "newly discovered" continent some time in the last five centuries, but... so what? Others spent their time and lived their own adventures in other parts of the planet, why should any group in particular be special? Every person can teach us something.

It is obvious that you identify yourself with the Acadian-Cajun-French heritage, but the heritage that really matters is encoded in your DNA, and that knows nothing about countries; you are a human being and your genes are compatible with those of any other human being of the complementary kind. Do you at least understand that? Do you understand that French, Chinese, Namibian, Brazilian and so on are just words? Most human beings are great people, but we can also be complete bastards, and names of places have nothing to do with it.

(03-04-2014 11:32 AM)wazzel Wrote:  To the last question, I do think some people hold on to certian beliefs becasue they feel it is part of thier identiy and if they let it go they woudl be letting go part of themselves. It could be religion or some other custom.
Yeah, that is exactly my point. It could be religion or some other custom; for example the custom of feeling French, English, Spanish, or wherever one feels from. I'm just glad to live in a universe with so many things to experience.

Anyway, I thank you for finally returning to the thread's topic. Have a good time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes living thing's post
04-04-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
I think in Christianity, it's usually a cycle with a starting point.

A person "becomes" a Christian by believing in Christ. But after that, it can (and often does) go from,"I'm a Christian because I believe in xyz," to "I must [that's an imperative] believe in xyz because I'm a Christian. If I DON'T believe in xyz, then that means that I'm either not a very good Christian or perhaps I'm not a REAL Christian at all! Therefore, I will believe in xyz."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Charis's post
04-04-2014, 11:31 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 07:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Re: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
No.
Ah, but if you had at least read the first paragraph in the opening post, you would have found a question for you: are you an atheist because you don't believe in any god, or do you not believe in any god because you are an atheist? If your answer is still "no", try reading the question again.

I don't believe in the existence of any god; I don't see how it is possible, nor why would it be necessary. And it certainly seems a lot more likely that stories about magical gods are made up, just like any other fictional story. But I don't describe myself as an atheist.

Why? Because I am no more an atheist than I am an asmurfist, aunicornist, acentaurist and so on, and I never use those words to describe myself. Calling myself an atheist would be giving the notion of a god way too much credit. And, to be honest, after an argument I had with someone who called himself an atheist, and who claimed that he would be an atheist even if God Himself came down to provide the evidence, I don't really like being called an atheist; I don't want to be mistaken for that guy. If a god does come down to provide actual evidence that can I examine thoroughly, I will be very very surprised, but I will have to reconsider my position. I don't take my current view as an objective truth.

(03-04-2014 07:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I love it when people try to pigeon-hole others by what they don't believe. It always turns into a straw man.
I don't think you do, I think it annoys you. That is probably why you reply so vehemently without even reading what you are replying to.

There's no strawman here, I don't care what you believe or do not believe; if it were up to me to give you any kind of advice, I would warn you against believing anything at all. Question even what you think you know. Don't make any ideology part of your identity, have your own view and your own voice.

The question you didn't seem to understand is: do you think that some people hold on to their dear beliefs because they view them as part of their identity?

Thanks for your opinion if you have one, and for the link you have "kindly" provided. Enjoy your time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: