Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
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04-04-2014, 11:34 AM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello Charis, how are you?

(04-04-2014 11:29 AM)Charis Wrote:  A person "becomes" a Christian by believing in Christ.
I know people who became Christians the minute they were baptised (as babies) and who haven't questioned it ever since.
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04-04-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 11:34 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello Charis, how are you?

(04-04-2014 11:29 AM)Charis Wrote:  A person "becomes" a Christian by believing in Christ.
I know people who became Christians the minute they were baptised (as babies) and who haven't questioned it ever since.

I suppose one's response to that would vary depending on that person's theology.
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04-04-2014, 12:13 PM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 11:46 AM)Charis Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 11:34 AM)living thing Wrote:  I know people who became Christians the minute they were baptised (as babies) and who haven't questioned it ever since.
I suppose one's response to that would vary depending on that person's theology.
Sometimes it is not that much theology what matters in this case.

In the administrative region where I happen to live, the managers of everyone's money give part of it to the treasurers of the catholic church, based on some agreement that some other legislator pulled out of his testis a number of years ago. Now the thing is, when an unwitting baby is baptised, his or her name goes to a record. Unless the person chooses to go through the pains of removing his or her name from the record, it counts towards the number of members the sect claims to have in this part of the planet. And that number is the base for the calculation of the amount of everyone's money that the current managers give to the treasurers of the catholic church, in exchange for nothing.

Or maybe this is theology, I don't know much about theology. The universe out there is way too fascinating, and my life too short, to waste my time arguing about Santa Claus' wishes.
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04-04-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Under the theology I was under, a person can not be "born" a Christian. One's Christianity must be on account of their own decision, their own conscious choice (yes, we believed in free will, sorry KC). Someone saying I was a Christian held no more weight in God's eyes than someone saying I was a Mercedes. Again, that was just the belief system I was in. I understand it differs greatly from what others experienced.
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04-04-2014, 12:32 PM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 12:17 PM)Charis Wrote:  Under the theology I was under, a person can not be "born" a Christian. One's Christianity must be on account of their own decision, their own conscious choice (yes, we believed in free will, sorry KC). Someone saying I was a Christian held no more weight in God's eyes than someone saying I was a Mercedes. Again, that was just the belief system I was in. I understand it differs greatly from what others experienced.
Well, the funny thing is that they do have a ritual they call "confirmation", and one would think that the honest approach is counting those as members of the sect. But no, no no no no! Baptised will do in the eyes of their greedy lord.

Anyway, what's with the KC thing? What is that?
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04-04-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 12:32 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 12:17 PM)Charis Wrote:  Under the theology I was under, a person can not be "born" a Christian. One's Christianity must be on account of their own decision, their own conscious choice (yes, we believed in free will, sorry KC). Someone saying I was a Christian held no more weight in God's eyes than someone saying I was a Mercedes. Again, that was just the belief system I was in. I understand it differs greatly from what others experienced.
Well, the funny thing is that they do have a ritual they call "confirmation", and one would think that the honest approach is counting those as members of the sect. But no, no no no no! Baptised will do in the eyes of their greedy lord.

Anyway, what's with the KC thing? What is that?

Ahh. Smile

Sorry, KC is an abbreviation of the name of one of our admins, King's Chosen. He's Calvinist, hence my comment there with the free will part.
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04-04-2014, 12:47 PM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 12:42 PM)Charis Wrote:  Sorry, KC is an abbreviation of the name of one of our admins, King's Chosen. He's Calvinist, hence my comment there with the free will part.
Oh, I see.

Thanks! It was becoming a very mysterious presence. But mysterious presences always have logical explanations if you care to look for them.

Have a good weekend.
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04-04-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

Hey, hang on here, I am of French ancestry but I'm also Merican, does this mean I'm double hated? Weeping

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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04-04-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(03-04-2014 11:50 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 10:55 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  ...
Unfortunately, Rowan Atkinson doesn't fall into the pro French camp.

This skit (minute 1:42) also mentions his hatred of them:
...

Au contraire mon ami.

Monsieur Atkinson ne détestent pas les Français.

You've conjugated that wrong.

Drinking Beverage

... this is my signature!
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04-04-2014, 02:56 PM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello Monster_Riffs, thanks for your view and your kind words. I am sorry I skipped your post.

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Someone may be born Christian, never really thought about it, they just subscribe to the beliefs, which you say is not cool. Alternatively, whether someone is born Christian (or any religion) as long as they have thought about it and arrived at their beliefs through sincerity, that's cool.
Please let me state clear that I don't decide what is cool or what is not; at most, I can say what I find stupid or what I find intelligent. But since my own stupidity is certainly not out of question, no one should take anything I may say as a truth.

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I see what you're saying but it is not remotely relevant to my position. I comfortably describe myself as an anti-theist in certain company. On here for example. I say it is not relevant because it is the belief system I feel morally obliged to counter, not the individuals which make its number. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may be interpreting 'truth' in a way I cannot agree with. .. You're from the your truth is not my truth camp if I'm not mistaken?
I'm afraid you are, if only in that little tiny claim about me.

I don't have a truth. Every single one of the notions in my mind, maybe except for this one I am stating right now (or maybe not?), is questionable. I have my subjective perspective (which may be up to entirely wrong), and I can combine it with perspectives coming from other points of view in order to arrive (or maybe not) to a perspective that is slightly less subjective. But since there is no way for me to view the universe from every possible perspective, I can never take my own view as an objective truth.

Besides, I make mistakes, just like anyone else, and I have noticed that the consequences of me believing some notion that wasn't true were generally worse than the consequences of me not believing a notion that turned out to be true, if only because the latter were expected, while the former were completely unexpected. You see, the problem of considering one's own view as a set of truths is that one stops considering other alternatives, and when the consequences of the mistake come, they come unexpectedly. So I try not to believe anything at all, just in case. However, there are a few notions that I think I understand.

Having said this, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I understand that you don't dislike being called an anti-theist, and that you do it yourself under a specific set of circumstances. I think you feel morally obliged to counter a belief system, although I am not sure whether it is one in particular or all of them in general. However, you don't feel obliged to counter the individuals which make its number (I presume that you mean those who profess some belief, or the particular belief you may feel obliged to counter). But I don't know what that means. I don't know what it means to counter an individual (sorry, I'm not a native English speaker). Would you like to express the same idea using different words, please?

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  To me, the word 'truth' in recent generations has gone through a metamorphic change in meaning and is used as a synonym for 'opinion'. In my view, this is not a good thing. 'Truth', means correct, accurate, factual etc. ... if you have two opposing world views, only one or neither can be the truth. It is impossible for both to be true. If it were just a case of 'this is my private belief system, everyone craic on with your life', I wouldn't mind. I'd hold a stance similar to yours but that's not how it is!
I'm not sure you understand my view yet, and that is ok, I haven't really described it. But I think I agree with your view; in my opinion, a notion is true if it describes the structure or the behaviour of reality. And whatever I may think about the notion, that has nothing to do with anything; as I've said elsewhere, I am not the thing that determines whether notions are true or false. I can only really talk about my subjective (and possibly mistaken) perspective.

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  There are world views that make truth claims without any evidence, often contradictory to evidence available, yet on the back of these claims, decisions and actions occur in the real world. ... For example, children have their genitals mutilated, stem cell research is stopped, women have their rights negated, people are slaughtered for disagreeing or changing their minds. I could go on. Don't get me wrong mate. I don't claim to know definitively what the truth is but I'm certain in light of evidence we have, or lack of evidence on the part of the religious that humanity has requested for thousands of years with none produced, I can confidently say I know what isn't true!
You're probably right; if an argument yields to contradictions, or if it rests on circular logic, among other possible circumstances, it is most likely false. And two or more conflicting arguments cannot all be objectively true.

And it really is sad the kinds of things people do led by imaginary abstractions :-(

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Truth is very important to me, real truth, not opinion as its imposter! I say this because opinions based on unsupported world views have led to some very harrowing outcomes in the history of mankind!
I think I understand what you mean, and I probably agree with your reading of history, but I put my emphasis on the notion of understanding, rather than truth. Truth is... too absolute, too perfect, if you know what I mean. It is our understanding what may grow and grow.

(03-04-2014 10:10 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Great thread, interesting angle!
Thanks. The point to it is that if someone holds dear beliefs because they are part of their identity, telling them that "you Christians are wrong" (or whatever creed they profess) won't help, because it will reaffirm the sense of identity ("you Christians") and then annoy ("are wrong"). If anyone really wants to convince one of those cases, I think the sensible thing to do is to try and provide them with an alternative identity they can hold on to. That is why I always remind people that we are all humans. Is it difficult for any of us to think of ourselves as a human being?

Thanks for stopping by. Take care!
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