Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
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06-04-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 07:44 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello TarzanSmith, how are you?

(05-04-2014 12:14 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I would like to add a third method. "I believe in xyz therefore I am a christian. I am a christian therefore I also believe in ABC". To a certain extent I think it is a matter of both. Some doctrines go cause to effect while others go effect to cause.

I think I may understand what you are saying. One may become a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Atheist/Whatever by accepting some of the notions presented by some particular creed (or lack of creed) and then believe or disbelieve the rest of the notions by extension, is that more or less what you're saying?

Let us see it with a fictional example. Christianism promotes being kind to one another and I agree with that notion, therefore I am a Christian, therefore I conclude that Jesus Christ existed.

Well I don't know if there are people out there who follow a similar kind of "logic", but I place it in the second lot. Regardless of why someone may consider themselves a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Atheist/Whatever, if we accept any notion just because we think we belong to a particular group of people, we are making an ideology part of our identity, and I find that silly.

But then again, I like not being able to frame myself in a particular ideology; I like having my own perspective about the universe I can find around me. So I am probably biased in what I consider to be silly.

Thanks for your interesting view.

Allow me to give another example. I am a Catholic because I find it the world view most consistent with reality. However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe. Some things I don't understand and so I believe in them because it is what a Catholic is supposed to believe. But a lot of what I believe is just what I observe in reality.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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06-04-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(05-04-2014 06:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 12:14 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I would like to add a third method. "I believe in xyz therefore I am a christian. I am a christian therefore I also believe in ABC". To a certain extent I think it is a matter of both. Some doctrines go cause to effect while others go effect to cause.

Yes, because all xtians believe in exactly the same things, right down the line....Angel

[Image: Fred_Phelps_10-29-2002.jpg]

I never said they did.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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06-04-2014, 01:39 PM
Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
Hello again, TarzanSmith.

(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Allow me to give another example. I am a Catholic because I find it the world view most consistent with reality. However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe.
Suppose that X = Catholic and X' = transubstantiation. If you believe in transubstantiation because you are a Catholic, then you believe in X' beacuse you are an X. See my point?

It does not matter what causes you to embrace an ideology. The minute you take any notion as a truth simply because that is what other people embracing the same ideology believe, you are making that ideology part of your identity. You believe in transubstantiation because that is what a Catholic is supposed to do, and how would you be a Catholic if you didn't accept it as a truth?

But please think carefully about it and tell me: do you really believe that the wine in the cup turns to blood? Will I find blood cells if I place a sample under a microscope? Can I determine Jesus' blood type by analysing it? And do you really believe it is possible that the so-called bread will actually turn into human flesh? Will I find a good representation of human proteins if I analyse it after it has been blessed?

If you think that those notions are probably the most consistent with reality, then that's great; it is your view. But if you don't, maybe you're not as Catholic as you thought. And that is ok too. Maybe you're another human being in this vast ever changing universe; with your own perspective, your own questions and your own answers.

Why let others tell you what to believe?

(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Some things I don't understand and so I believe in them because it is what a Catholic is supposed to believe.
That is exactly my point. You view yourself as a Catholic, and therefore you accept transubstantiation as a truth because that is what Catholics are supposed to do.

But I don't embrace any ideology, so I get to choose what I do. Whenever there is a notion that I do not understand, I ask questions about it. And for as long as I cannot understand it, I remain aware that I don't understand it, because that way, if I ever face a situation that requires my understanding of the given notion, I will carefully consider every available option. If I decide right now that many notions that I do not understand must be true just because their sources claim they know, the day I face a situation that requires my actual knowledge I am likely to make an unconscious mistake, and I will leave myself exposed to unexpected and possibly undesired consequences.

In my view, the sensible approach to a notion that cannot be understood is not taking it as a truth. But please don't take my view as a truth; draw your own conclusions.

Thanks again for contribution, TarzanSmith.

Enjoy!
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06-04-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe.

Once you swallow the fly.....

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-04-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Allow me to give another example. I am a Catholic because I find it the world view most consistent with reality.

[Image: colin-farrell.gif]


Quote:However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe.
Some things I don't understand and so I believe in them because it is what a Catholic is supposed to believe. But a lot of what I believe is just what I observe in reality.

Thank you for admitting your abject intellectual dishonesty.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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06-04-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 10:50 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(05-04-2014 06:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Yes, because all xtians believe in exactly the same things, right down the line....Angel

[Image: Fred_Phelps_10-29-2002.jpg]

I never said they did.

You said, "I am a christian therefore I also believe in ABC."

You didn't say, "I'm a catholiKKK, therefore I believe in ABC."

But I not at all surprised that you are too fucking stupid to realize it.

But you have already admitted your abject intellectual dishonesty.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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06-04-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Allow me to give another example. I am a Catholic because I find it the world view most consistent with reality. However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe. Some things I don't understand and so I believe in them because it is what a Catholic is supposed to believe. But a lot of what I believe is just what I observe in reality.


That should set off a red flag right there. Why would you ever ever believe in something 'just because'? You do yourself, as well as the human race, a great disservice by taking such a close-minded point of view. If everyone took that stance we would still be draining a person's blood as a medical treatment out of belief that we're letting the 'bad' blood out of the body.

I just find it disturbing how many people would choose willful ignorance over knowledge because ignorance is more comforting. Shocking

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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07-04-2014, 04:24 AM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(06-04-2014 08:05 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 10:48 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Allow me to give another example. I am a Catholic because I find it the world view most consistent with reality. However I believe in transubstantiation mostly because its what they tell me to believe. Some things I don't understand and so I believe in them because it is what a Catholic is supposed to believe. But a lot of what I believe is just what I observe in reality.


That should set off a red flag right there. Why would you ever ever believe in something 'just because'? You do yourself, as well as the human race, a great disservice by taking such a close-minded point of view. If everyone took that stance we would still be draining a person's blood as a medical treatment out of belief that we're letting the 'bad' blood out of the body.

I just find it disturbing how many people would choose willful ignorance over knowledge because ignorance is more comforting. Shocking

Hey now, there aint nothing wrong with a good old bloodletting.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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17-04-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Are you an X because you believe in X'? Or do you believe in X' because you are an X?
(04-04-2014 01:21 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I concur.

Tradition is a powerful mind-bender.

And ... who doesn't hate the French?

Angel

Hey, hang on here, I am of French ancestry but I'm also Merican, does this mean I'm double hated? Weeping

You need to ask?

Drinking Beverage

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