Are you guys insane?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-04-2012, 06:43 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(22-04-2012 07:44 PM)Egor Wrote:  Protozoa, namely paramecia, behave as if they have consciousness
Sometimes, you behave as if you have intelligence. In both cases, it's obviously an illusion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like zihuatanejo's post
24-04-2012, 03:45 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(23-04-2012 10:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  2) Why does everyone assume that evolution is about organisms trying to attain some form of "higher" life?

Quote:I won't waste my time on irreducible complexity. Who is to say what is complex and what is not?

Who says that? Behe doesn't. I don't. What is being said is that the mutations needed to make the changes necessary to make the differences in species just aren't going to happen by chance in the time available. And of course you don't want to talk about irreducible complexity, because that would mean that mutations happen with no selection pressure at all and gradually build up over time until they fom a biological structure like the eye, or the flagellum, or the blood clotting cascade.
Quote this message in a reply
24-04-2012, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 08:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
Scientific American, Vol 287, #1
15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense, John Rennie,

www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/
http://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/genetics/eliminatingmutation/
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/mutationsanddisorders/genemutation
http://sciencefocus.com/qa/what-causes-mutations-needed-evolution

The Blowhard Disorder Mutation :
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/archive/proteinrole/index.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_it_take_to_make_a_mutation
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_a_mutation_affect_a_population_over_a_period_of_time
http://www.biostars.org/post/show/14234/mutation-rate-in-human-and-calculating-time-from-diverged-sequences/lays

Chance plays a part in (for example, in the random mutations that can give rise to new traits), but evolution does not depend on chance to create organisms,proteins or other entities. Quite the opposite: natural selection,the principal known mechanism of evolution,harnesses nonrandom change by preserving “desirable”(adaptive) features and eliminating “undesirable” (nonadaptive) ones. As long as the forces of selection stay constant,natural selection can push evolution in one direction and produce sophisticated structures in surprisingly short times.

As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence “TOBEORNOTTOBE.” Those hypothetical million monkeys,each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613
sequences
of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomly while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed (in effect, selecting for phrases more like Ham
www) . On average, the program re-created the phrase injust 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare’s entire play in just four and a half days.



"Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics".
Edited by
Robert T. Pennock. Bradford Books/MIT Press, 2001.

For anyone who wishes to understand the “intelligent design” controversy in detail, this book is a terrific one-volume
summary of the scientific, philosophical and theological issues. Philip E. Johnson, Michael J. Behe and William A.Dembski
make the case for intelligent design and are rebutted totally by evolutionists, (including Pennock, Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Dawkins).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
24-04-2012, 07:59 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(24-04-2012 03:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-04-2012 10:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  2) Why does everyone assume that evolution is about organisms trying to attain some form of "higher" life?

Quote:I won't waste my time on irreducible complexity. Who is to say what is complex and what is not?

Who says that? Behe doesn't. I don't. What is being said is that the mutations needed to make the changes necessary to make the differences in species just aren't going to happen by chance in the time available. And of course you don't want to talk about irreducible complexity, because that would mean that mutations happen with no selection pressure at all and gradually build up over time until they fom a biological structure like the eye, or the flagellum, or the blood clotting cascade.
Egor, once again, "irreducibly complex" structures could not have arose from chance mutations. Natural selection is the driving force here, not random mutations. However, mutations are still required to provide the genetic variation for natural selection to act upon. Remember, evolution is not just about mutations. There are a lot other mechanisms that can lead you to "irreducibly complex structures."

Here's a relevant picture to help further understand:
[Image: SqIlvdc4JkWBpwZc37CB4A2.jpg]


Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like robotworld's post
24-04-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
The best guess for explaining life on earth is sufficient variability accompanied by the guiding hand of natural selection. To argue based on hypothetical considerations that what we observe today could only have come to be through unnatural means is preposterous. If magic factors in at any point of a would be explanatory account of creation, then we can not explain it or anything else. Any such explanation would for ever have to be qualified by disclaimer that such and such seems to be the way of it .. barring any intercession on the part of magic.

Heck the bible is on no more solid footing than science in terms of origins if we allow magic in. Perhaps the bible is the creation of some false god? Or maybe the magic creator being actually just created everything we see 5 seconds ago and here we are complete with memories to give us the illusion of having been around longer. Could be, right? We can't disprove it.

Basically we have to choose our objectives. if we want to explain anything, we must forgo appeals to magic. Natural causes is all that can be drawn on in attempting to explain how one thing led to another. Magic, by its very nature, cannot be explained. If at any level of your explanation you find "it was just magic", then what you have is a story. Perhaps the story is true but evidence can't help you show that. For evidence is an aspect of the natural world but totally illusory in a world of magic.

[Image: rSJ3y4]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like whateverist's post
24-04-2012, 11:37 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(24-04-2012 06:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:   but evolution does not depend on chance to create organisms,proteins or other entities. Quite the opposite: natural selection,the principal known mechanism of evolution,harnesses nonrandom change by preserving “desirable”(adaptive) features and eliminating “undesirable” (nonadaptive) ones.

"...harnesses nonrandom change..."

I would agree with that. Hell, that's what I've been saying. I suppose now you'll say something different.
Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2012, 01:42 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Egor - evolution has already been observed in the lab. It's the ONLY theory out there that gives an explanation for what we observe. It has predictive capabilities. It's useful in all branches of biology, medicine, paleontology, zoology, and 50 other ologies. Your understanding of evolution is insufficient.
When I use the term ignorant. I am referring to your understanding of the material, not a blanket assessment of your over all intelligence.

Behe is selling a book built upon lies. He knows better or at least he should.

Your trolling of this topic is either intentional or you cannot bring yourself to understand the last 150 years of biological experimentation and observational TRUTH.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2012, 04:43 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2012 05:01 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
...harnesses nonrandom change... Hell, that's what I've been saying. I suppose now you'll say something different.

Unfortunately, that's only half your problem.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AsJDTq2...ke&f=false
Scroll to p. 74.
There's the other half.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
25-04-2012, 05:10 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
I dunno if anybody has mentioned it, because I haven't read all 14 pages of the thread, but to expand on Rahn's post just above mine, you can see evolution in diseases all the time. Often diseases will 'mutate' and change to become more suited to situations and become immune to otherwise working cures.
This is evolution right in front of our eyes. We see this because the things doing it are incredibly tiny. Made up of very few cells. Even so it can take years.

So now imagine something like a human. We are HUGE compared to a single bacteria, HUGE. For us to evolve and adapt takes a long time, hundreds and thousands of years.

BUT the fact we can and often do see evolution on a smaller scale is living proof. Then add the obvious proof of human skulls dated over time (a human skull 1,000 years ago is different to a human skull today).

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-04-2012, 05:57 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2012 06:11 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
There's a bit of confusion in this thread about irreducible complexity. Here's a crash course for both sides, as both sides are getting it wrong:
* A system is irreducibly complex if removal of one part of the system would cause the system not to function. There's no judgement call here. It's easy enough to define.
* The bacterial flagellum is one such irreducibly complex system. If you take one of the proteins away that make it up, it cannot function to propel the bacteria.
* Behe's statements on the subject are essentially that
(1) Irreducibly complex systems exist in nature
(2) By definition this means that such systems cannot have evolved through incremental single-step mutations to produce the final system.
* The counter argument to this is as follows
(1) Irreducibly complex systems do exist in nature
(2) However, such systems did evolve through incremental single-step mutations
(3) The explanation for this disconnect is that the single-step mutations each either produced systems that had no function, or more likely the single-step mutations formed different systems with different functions from the irreducibly complex system.
* The prediction of the counter argument is that if we start to strip away proteins from an irreducibly complex system what we will find are systems that do something different to the irreducibly complex system, but do something useful none the less.
* This prediction holds out - we do find that the darlings of the irreducibly complexity movement such as the flagellum when stripped back form other systems that have other functions to the irreducibly complex system.

Here is a nice little youtube video covering the topic:




We also have direct observed beneficial mutations not only happening in our labs, but in the wild. Nylon is a man-made material that does not exist in nature. However, we now have bacteria that can eat nylon. We know this happened through a gene duplication and frame shift mutation. We can read the bytes from the DNA of this bacteria and its parent species.

See:


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Hafnof's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: