Are you guys insane?
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26-04-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(26-04-2012 09:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  We believe what we want to believe.
This being your position, you have just defeated yourself in any future claim or argument.
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26-04-2012, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2012 11:02 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
I'm not playing with words. Read my posts very carefully again, and don't try to analyze my psyche via my posts on the internet (hint: some of my posts have a bit of dry humor in them for other readers, such as my bitter comment).

And don't pretend that you know my desires about believing in god or not. I can honestly say that at the point in my life when I began my studies in geology, I wanted to believe in a god and made many concessions about the observations and information being presented to me in those classes. I tried to warp the information to fit my god-centered worldview. I tried to apply some cosmically intelligent cause to evolution and plate tectonics. And guess what? Those observations you say back up your interpretation of intelligent guidance in evolution? I made those too, and then I realized that the observations could still be explained without the need for god or design or intelligence or guidance, and those explanations made more sense and they were simpler. They also dealt with reality since they did not invoke the existence of supernature (for which no evidence exists). It's funny how people think a philosophical viewpoint that can't be proven wrong is on par with science. (See Russel's teapot)

Science does not deal in absolutes, so when you say I am only suggesting in might or might not have happened, you are correct. Our universe is made up of probabilities, with absolutes being far and few-between (the universal constants remain absolute, but not necessarily in all cases) and scientists recognize this. The questions are far more valuable than the answers, because answers change as new information and technology becomes available.

I will go back on last time to the whole random vs. non-random idea and mutations. Mutations themselves are random. The selection of mutations in the gene pool is not random. Therefore, mutations may occur at random, every day, in every organism, but the majority have no effect. The scrambling of the information does not impede the organism nor does it convey a benefit to that individual. It does however allow for variability in the offspring, which can be selected based on their level of fitness. And selection acts upon the phenotype, not the genotype. The genotype is selected by default. I am beginning to sound like a broken record.

So, no evidence for design nor any evidence for guidance means that it is a baseless claim with no footing in reality. It is a claim with comparable validity to that of the claims for Big Foot, the Loch Ness monster, alien abductions, ghosts, fairies, an ether that everything in space floats in, that astrological signs determine your character, that fossilized belemnites are really petrified lightning bolts, etc, etc.
It is worth noting that the diagram Robotworld posted would be the development of eyes in organisms like Mollusks and not the vertebrates. Our eyes are backwards by virtue of slide 1 detecting light on the upper surface of the body, despite the photosensitive cell being on the underside. The rest of it is similar but since it was backwards initially, the photoreceptors remained in their original orientation and as the head began to develop, it moved to a more forward location and up through the body, causing the rest of the development to occur with the photoreceptors facing backwards.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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26-04-2012, 12:38 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Egor - it would seem that you are suffering from The Dunning–Kruger effect.
It is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average.

You believe you know something, when in fact, the facts seem to confuse you greatly.

Given the amount of biology and science you SAY that you have, you still appear to not understand some very basic concepts in evolution.
I won't even attempt to get into the details. I'll leave that to others who are more learned than I.

There is nothing I can say that will erase the bias you have going on in your head. You may never be able to get over it. Who knows.
But I for one, am not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you of something you won't understand.
(Not that you can't understand it, but that you won't)

You say that you understand evolution, but the thing is, you don't.
You say that a god must be responsible for the things we observe, but there is no evidence that would lead any rational person to think that.
All of the evidence (99.999999 %) we have observed, detected, examined, etc, lines up and fits perfectly with the theory of evolution.

And if you for one minute try to say "it's only a theory" then ALL of your supposed scientific credentials go out the window.

You have a lack of understanding about how this process works.
It only makes sense to you when you insert a "god" into the process.

Go back to any stage in time when people didn't know how something worked.
They would insert a god into the process and that solved it for them. No need to worry any further.

Many yrs ago
Fire - obviously a fire god caused it
Thunder - Thor the god of Thunder
Lightning - Bolts from Zeus
Sunlight - Sunrise, Sunset
The Moon. the stars
The seasons
The rains, the floods, earthquakes, volcanos - All attributed to gods because they didn't know how else to explain what they were observing.

If you are a rational person who is not simply trolling this forum. then you must at least take it under advisement that your reasoning is flawed.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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26-04-2012, 12:43 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(26-04-2012 12:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Egor - it would seem that you are suffering from The Dunning–Kruger effect.
It is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average.

You believe you know something, when in fact, the facts seem to confuse you greatly.

Given the amount of biology and science you SAY that you have, you still appear to not understand some very basic concepts in evolution.
I won't even attempt to get into the details. I'll leave that to others who are more learned than I.

There is nothing I can say that will erase the bias you have going on in your head. You may never be able to get over it. Who knows.
But I for one, am not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you of something you won't understand.
(Not that you can't understand it, but that you won't)

You say that you understand evolution, but the thing is, you don't.
You say that a god must be responsible for the things we observe, but there is no evidence that would lead any rational person to think that.
All of the evidence (99.999999 %) we have observed, detected, examined, etc, lines up and fits perfectly with the theory of evolution.

And if you for one minute try to say "it's only a theory" then ALL of your supposed scientific credentials go out the window.

You have a lack of understanding about how this process works.
It only makes sense to you when you insert a "god" into the process.

Go back to any stage in time when people didn't know how something worked.
They would insert a god into the process and that solved it for them. No need to worry any further.

Many yrs ago
Fire - obviously a fire god caused it
Thunder - Thor the god of Thunder
Lightning - Bolts from Zeus
Sunlight - Sunrise, Sunset
The Moon. the stars
The seasons
The rains, the floods, earthquakes, volcanos - All attributed to gods because they didn't know how else to explain what they were observing.

If you are a rational person who is not simply trolling this forum. then you must at least take it under advisement that your reasoning is flawed.
My HERO! Bowing
Worship Slaves Bowing

Well said.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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26-04-2012, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2012 06:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
(26-04-2012 06:50 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-04-2012 04:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I have a throne room in my home.

Why am I not surprised? Consider


I stole it from Benny. Now I just gotta git me onna dem hat thingies, (an a couple "minions") an I'll be all set.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf3b0XoN5BGXEvLJm4W86...7n9g1NloXw]



Ted Talks .. "A Light Switch for Neurons".
http://www.ted.com/talks/ed_boyden.html


http://evolutionarynovelty.blogspot.com/...itive.html

http://www.biology.uoc.gr/reaserch_sections/marine/documents/Kotzabasis-CompleteListofPublications.pdf

Causes of Mutation
Genetic Mutations
Effects of Mutations
DNA Mutations
Chromosome Mutation
Animal Mutation
Point Mutation
Harmful Mutations
Definition of Mutation
Interesting Genetic Mutations
Chromosomal Mutation
Substitution Mutation
Frameshift Mutation
Kinds of Mutations
Frog Mutation
Plant Mutation
Mutated Animals
Mutagens
DNA Structure


Super Computer simulation of development of photo sensitive cells. : (and "just a few" other "complexities"):

https://www.google.com/search?q=supercom...80&bih=603

Quiz on Friday. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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26-04-2012, 05:22 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(26-04-2012 10:21 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Actually, it's the other way round. Without selection pressure, there will be no advantage. Whether a trait is advantageous or not is ultimately determined by the environment the organism is placed in. A trait that allows an organism to survive in harsh, dry conditions is advantageous in arid deserts, but may be disadvantageous in humid rainforests. An example would be the peppered moths, with their respective wing colours (white and black) being advantageous and disadvantageous depending on the colour of the tree barks.

Right. I agree. But if a mutation does not confer an advantage in the environment a species finds itself in, then there is no selection pressure on that mutation (or for that mutation—however you want to word it).

Quote:It does not start with a big mutation, but it starts small. What I meant is that the evolution of such mechanisms and structures involve the adding on of components, step by step. There can be intermediate components on the way, but they are either refined or removed at the end.

[Image: 350px-Diagram_of_eye_evolution.svg.png]
In the illustration above, there is absolutely no reason for the nerve fibers to form on the photosensitive cells. None. If the nerves showed up first, they were worthless, if the photosensitive cells showed up first, they were worthless. If the photosensitive cells just happened to be there and a mutation occurred that produced nerve growth, there would still have to be a brain that could interpret the nerve impulses or it’s all worthless—no advantage, no selection pressure. No bridge building through reproduction.

It may have happened, but it’s too unlikely to be rational to believe.

Quote:Given the time? 4.54 billion years is a pretty long time. Simple micro-evolution can take place within days, or even hours.

You’ve got to be kidding. Don’t you ever consider the fact that most mutations are detrimental to an animal’s offspring? You act like the mutations are all advantageous. And I’m not going to get trapped into fighting evolution. I believe in evolution. It’s a fact. That’s it. What I am arguing doesn’t really have anything to do with evolution. It has to do with molecular mutation and what causes that mutation to occur.

Quote:Also, about Panspermia (the theory of aliens seeding lifeforms), that's more of abiogenesis, how life first started. Darwin's Theory of Evolution via Natural Selection explains the diversity of species on our planet.

Who cares? Aliens didn’t come and populate our planet or seed it. Life formed and we evolved.

Quote:Precognitive episodes? I remember that I was once called the weatherman, for being able to correctly predict the weather 9 out of 10 times. I thought my dreams were visions of the future, as I see one dream coming true at a time. I thought I had psychic powers (possibly as a side-effect from playing too much Pokemon). That is, until I started recording any precognitive thoughts I have, no matter how fleeting. Turns out I'm playing the probability game. Nearly half of my thoughts are right, the others plain wrong. I realised I had committed the fallacy of confirmation bias. But, I would like to hear of your precognitive experiences. It should be interesting Smile

That’s for another thread.

Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by one-cell creatures acting with will and purpose, can you elaborate further? Usually the aim of any organism is to survive and reproduce.

Using memory to search an piece of algae for food (bacteria). Swimming in one direction, turning and swimming in the opposite direction and then going back to where it was before. I can’t swear they are conscious, but they sure act like it, and that’s the best analysis we can make of any creature’s consciousness besides our own.

Quote:God, to me is like a giant, fluffy teddy bear, a companion for all ages, and for the imaginative, a decent friend who is willing to hear your joys and sorrows. Teddy God is comforting when you speak to him. Teddy god listens to you without a single word of complaint. The ideal companion. To me, all such is just a facade, an escape from the harshness of life.
Well, that god is ridiculous and doesn’t exist, so it’s no wonder you’re an atheist. I mean, if that’s as deep as you can get about God, then you’re never going to be able to believe.

Quote:God is comforting, Santa is comforting, Fluffy the Dinosaur is comforting. We do not believe for various reasons. Some feel that there is no need to invoke a deity to explain life and nature, for science easily does that. Some do not want to associate themselves with any religion, but prefer to be freethinkers. A myriad of reasons for why we do not believe in a God.

There are four primary reasons, and these reasons are inescapable. People who fall into one of these four groups not only will not believe in God, but can never believe in God.

Quote:But to really understand, consider why do you reject the notion of the existence of other Gods such as Vishnu, Thor, Shiva or creatures such as fairies, pixies, The Loch Ness Monster, that shadowy creature in your basement with red eyes and makes a funny whooshing noise...

You’re an idiotic Dawkins worshiper, and you know it. You think he’s smart so you identify with him to make yourself feel better about yourself, just like the people who worship Rush Limbaugh or Anthony Robins.

Quote:All in all, thank you for taking your time to reply Big Grin

I’ll have to start looking more closely. If I had known you were going to be an insulting jerk at the end, I would have passed you up. From now on I won’t get fooled again. Or as the former President Bush would say:



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26-04-2012, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2012 05:59 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
(26-04-2012 09:47 AM)Egor Wrote:  See, for me, I could grant you every notion you have about evolution, and it wouldn't change the argument for God. When all is said and done, one would still have to ponder how a universe that operates on evolution could form in the first place. But the atheist, if they lose one foothold at all, their entire house of cards crumbles.


Actually, it's precisely the opposite. Since in the end, any one, of any of the gods, (as someone pointed out last week in a thread about why the Judeo-Christian god was illogical), is equally refutable for the reasons posted in that thread, (even though a certain poster was unable to state how their god differed in any substantial way from the one being refuted), every notion of every god argued from this position is always just going to be another "god of the gaps", and that that house of cards has already crashed. The universe "from nothing" is perfectly plauseable, as was argued for, in Krauss' "A Universe From Nothing", and the above certain poster has never even come close to refuting, nor ever attempted to refute, even one word of that tome. So fear not. The house is still standing.




(26-04-2012 05:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  Using memory to search an piece of algae for food (bacteria). Swimming in one direction, turning and swimming in the opposite direction and then going back to where it was before. I can’t swear they are conscious, but they sure act like it, and that’s the best analysis we can make of any creature’s consciousness besides our own.

Fail. A certain poster has not demonstrated they have any "consciousness, nor has that poster been able to define the term.

Said poster says there are 4 groups of persons who don't believe in a god, and conveniently forgot to mention what those groups are. Then calls a certain other poster, "an idiotic Dawkins worshiper", and follows that statement up with "If I had known you were going to be an insulting jerk at the end, I would have past you up."

When said poster goes back to grade school, perhaps said poster/great-and-famous-author/blogger/religion-founder will learn some English. (It's "passed you up"). Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-04-2012, 02:52 AM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
I had a lot more written, but I need to start changing my tone, so I edited it out. Besides, HOC reposted the most salient point.
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27-04-2012, 02:57 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Oh my Gwynnies!

(27-04-2012 02:52 AM)Egor Wrote:  That's the only reason you're an atheist--because you're stupid.

I lol'd. Big Grin

You got Krauss all wrong, but he's a big boy, he can defend himself.

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27-04-2012, 06:08 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Forgive me Egor for I really do not mean to be offensive. Sorry if I offended you.
Quote: Right. I agree. But if a mutation does not confer an advantage in the environment a species finds itself in, then there is no selection pressure on that mutation (or for that mutation—however you want to word it).
Exactly. That is correct.
Quote:In the illustration above, there is absolutely no reason for the nerve fibers to form on the photosensitive cells. None. If the nerves showed up first, they were worthless, if the photosensitive cells showed up first, they were worthless. If the photosensitive cells just happened to be there and a mutation occurred that produced nerve growth, there would still have to be a brain that could interpret the nerve impulses or it’s all worthless—no advantage, no selection pressure. No bridge building through reproduction.
It's more of the other way round. The nerves show up first. The photosensitive cells come next.

Meet Euglena.

Euglena possess a red eyespot, an organelle composed of carotenoid pigment granules. It filters the sunlight that falls on a light-detecting structure at the base of the flagellum, allowing only certain wavelengths of light to reach it. As the cell rotates with respect to the light source, the eyespot partially blocks the source, permitting the Euglena to find the light and move toward it.

The base of the flagellum is the signal receptor. The entire flagellum has a use on its own even without the photosensitive cells.

Quote: You’ve got to be kidding. Don’t you ever consider the fact that most mutations are detrimental to an animal’s offspring? You act like the mutations are all advantageous. And I’m not going to get trapped into fighting evolution. I believe in evolution. It’s a fact. That’s it. What I am arguing doesn’t really have anything to do with evolution. It has to do with molecular mutation and what causes that mutation to occur.
That is indeed correct. But once again, random mutations are not the driving force of evolution. Other mechanisms such as natural selection exert a lot more influence. Mutations serve to provide genetic variation for natural selection to act on.
Quote: Using memory to search an piece of algae for food (bacteria). Swimming in one direction, turning and swimming in the opposite direction and then going back to where it was before. I can’t swear they are conscious, but they sure act like it, and that’s the best analysis we can make of any creature’s consciousness besides our own.
With regards to the above mentioned phenomena, you might be referring to chemotaxis, the phenomenon in which somatic cells, bacteria, and other single-cell or multicellular organisms direct their movements according to certain chemicals in their environment.

To put it simply. In an environment for bacteria, there are substances the bacteria want (food), and stuff the bacteria do not want. Theses substances are scattered throughout the bacteria living environment. There is thus a chemical gradient of bacterial food and toxins. Bacteria are able to sense such chemical gradients through their receptors.

[Image: 800px-Chtx-AttrRep-en.png]
An analogy will be like avoiding trash cans because we smell the stinky trash, like how bacteria are able avoid toxins because of their ability to detect chemical gradients through their receptors (their "sense" of "smell")
Quote: There are four primary reasons, and these reasons are inescapable. People who fall into one of these four groups not only will not believe in God, but can never believe in God.
What are the four primary reasons?

Quote: You’re an idiotic Dawkins worshiper, and you know it. You think he’s smart so you identify with him to make yourself feel better about yourself, just like the people who worship Rush Limbaugh or Anthony Robins.
Actually I came out with something like this in Sunday school before Dawkins wrote his book. I was focusing on Santa Claus as an example. I never got an answer though.

Also, I feel that Dawkins is too harsh, from his book "The God Delusion". Very critical style. I'm not really a fan of his. I have not read most of his publishing materials, and only heard of him quite recently.


Thank you once again for your reply. I'll tone down on the metaphors and sarcasm.

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