Are you guys insane?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-04-2012, 11:23 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(29-04-2012 08:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  Are you intentionally reading something into a light, amusing quip that's simply not there?

That's what trolls do. Dodgy

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 08:10 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Humor lost on ignorance, but I shall explain (although I doubt you will ever find it humorous).

All elements heavier than He (with the exception of some of the Li) originate in fusion reactions in the cores of stars, or are the result of the intense heats and pressures of their catastrophic implosion and explosion (all elements heavier than Fe). Ergo, all of the original H and He (mainly the H, as it is the most abundant by far) that formed shortly after the Big Bang, gave rise to all other elements. These in turn coalesced into larger particles of matter and eventually into planetesimals and then planets. And then life first originated on this planet in particular from these elements and then only a few short hundreds of thousands of years ago, the first species that could be classified as human came into existence. So, in an indirect way, we are all made up of hydrogen, or as Carl Sagan might say "We're all made of star stuff."

The above is an explanation from the perspective of a chemist (of which I dabble in as well). The quote is a satire on chemistry and evolution. If we were to rewind the cosmic clock and press play, all of the elements would still form in the same ways, but would the same planets form? In the same way? Would life arise on Earth? Or anywhere else? Would the Milky Way have even formed? Randomness and disorder abound in our universe and if we were to rewind the cosmic clock, we would almost certainly witness a completely new set of cosmic events transpire.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Computers.
Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Airplanes.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Stars.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Ants.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Pocket knives.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Water.

Ergo, hydrogen is a light odorless gas, which given enough time, turns into Fictional Works of art (like the Bible).

Or indeed anything in existence made up of matter.

Was that really the best attack on me you could muster? I mean, you claim to "believe" in evolution but you continue to claim that random mutations can not account for evolution. Despite the fact that no one (I feel like a broken record again) is claiming that is the case. Can you name one credible evolutionary biologist that makes such a claim?

I will consider the option of evolution as a purely natural process being wrong, when I see scientific research by someone who is not religiously motivated. I do not know of a single atheist scientist who says that the theory of evolution is wrong or that it is intelligently guided, only religious fools.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
30-04-2012, 02:09 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(30-04-2012 08:10 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I will consider the option of evolution as a purely natural process being wrong, when I see scientific research by someone who is not religiously motivated. I do not know of a single atheist scientist who says that the theory of evolution is wrong or that it is intelligently guided, only religious fools.

I guess there's no way to get it through your skull--evolution is a fact, it's not a belief, or that's what I believe anyway. But we're not talking about evolution; we're talking about mutations that occur at genetic level. We're talking about whether the cause of these changes is ordered or chaotic, and from there we're going into statistics, and what the likelihood is that a species will experience a fortuitous mutation and could those odds really lead to the diversity and complexity of life we observe on this planet in the amount of time life has been around. From there we look at irreducible complexity, and I've already pretty much shot down your idea of photosensitive cells evolving into an eye.

Evolution is a fact, but we're not talking about evolution. I'm saying that given an evolution that occurs via blind chance mutations we would never have what we observe. I don't think in a million billion years that system would so much as create the flagellum on protozoa.

And here's the problem with "atheist scientists" if they want to remain atheists they cannot allow any theory that implies anything that is not already known to be a physical reality. They can't think outside the box, and they are biased--no different than a scientist that will not allow anything that contradicts the Bible.
Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
"Evolution is a fact, but we're not talking about evolution. I'm saying that given an evolution that occurs via blind chance mutations we would never have what we observe. I don't think in a million billion years that system would so much as create the flagellum on protozoa."

Please cite your reference for evolution that occurs via random chance mutations. I have never heard of such evolution.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. When someone starts spouting off things like "the odds are too great for this or that to have happened" they are almost certainly looking for validation in numbers that are susceptible to human influences.

Dr. Harriet Hall calls this "tooth fairy science." She has a column in 'Skeptic' magazine and describes it basically as confirmation bias wrapped around the perception of false certainties because of data that is interpreted based on the interpreters confirmation bias. Trying to say that the odds of random mutations causing anything to form is to ignore the driving forces behind evolution. It also makes the assumptions that all of the variables that contribute to the formation of any given trait are known and can be accurately estimated. Both assumptions are almost certainly false in any and every case. Scientists make predictions about what selection pressures might exist to select for a trait, but most traits are inherited and some may be related to factors as yet unknown.

And, one more time, evolution via random mutations is not what the scientific community is advocating for.

And I don't remember any argument you made that even hinted at the possibility of photosensitive cells being selected for as wrong. You have also not provided any evidence for your idea that they were guided by Zeus, I mean Apollo, I mean Shiva, Mithra? Osiris? The Sun? God? Jesus? The moon? Venus? I lost track of which fictional character you support.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 03:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
"I guess there's no way to get it through your skull--evolution is a fact, it's not a belief, or that's what I believe anyway."


(psssst)

Said poster just said it's not a belief, then said poster, said, said poster "believes it". Heh heh. Said poster is VERY humorous.

"But we're not talking about evolution; we're talking about mutations that occur at genetic level. We're talking about whether the cause of these changes is ordered or chaotic"

Said poster says, said poster is talking about a "cause", when in fact, said poster, is talking about the PROCESS, and not the "cause". If said poster actually understood the "cause", perhaps things would not be so muddled, for said poster.

Said poster says the "cause" is "ordered". Said poster forgot about the millions of mutations which occur, that are not favorable, and die out. Said poster forgot about the Leukemia Virus.

Said poster can't keep the cause , and the process, straight.

Said poster attempts to posit a false dichotomy between "fortuitous" and "non-fortuitous", as said poster doesn't know shit about Genetics.

Said poster keeps saying that the probability of certain mutations are unreasonably high. Said poster has never once actually given a number for the improbability limit. Said poster says he's shot down arguments, when he hasn't even begun.

Said poster says "evolution is a fact", when Evolution is a Theory. Said poster doesn't know the steps of the Scientific Method.

Said poster doesn't get it that scientists being atheistic has nothing to do with doing science. Said poster doesn't get it that it's not about "thinking outside the box", it's about EVIDENCE. Said poster doesn't get that if a scientist posits a "theory" based of what is not observable, (such as said poster's lunacy about Paramecia that have consciusness) that scientist would not BE a scientist, but a looney toon. Said poster thinks the world was created in six days, and then, men, on the whatever day, then somehow knew what happened on the day before.

Said poster should go into Stand Up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
30-04-2012, 03:54 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(30-04-2012 03:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Said poster says the "cause" is "ordered". Said poster forgot about the millions of mutations which occur, that are not favorable, and die out.

When you have a success rate of 50% or less, you're considered mediocre. When you have a success rate of less than 1%, you're considered a god. Interesting.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like guitar_nut's post
30-04-2012, 06:26 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(30-04-2012 02:09 PM)Egor Wrote:  Evolution is a fact, but we're not talking about evolution. I'm saying that given an evolution that occurs via blind chance mutations we would never have what we observe. I don't think in a million billion years that system would so much as create the flagellum on protozoa.
Evolution does not occur by "blind chance mutations". It occurs by the cumulative effect of mutations and is a stochastic process. Your misunderstanding of evolution is epic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: