Are you guys insane?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-04-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 10:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 09:40 AM)lucradis Wrote:  You make a lot of assumptions Egor.

That's sort of one of your modus operandi. I'll let it slip since your attitude is so great.

I'm not even going to bother rehashing why you're wrong about me, it's always been apparent to me that you read what you want and see what you want in every sentence anyone has ever written. And you do it with such antagonism it's almost comical.

One thing that would be nice though, would be if you stop presuming that just because we don't believe your assumptions that makes us wrong. You jump to conclusions based on who the fuck knows. Don't assume that because we don't do that you are somehow more knowing than us. It's usually the opposite. Because we base our knowledge on facts and evidence whereas you only do when it's convenient. That makes you less knowledgeable.

Also I didn't give you attitude so don't give me attitude.

First off, will you please delete the clown. It freaks me right the fuck out. I've never been so close to psychosis as when I stare at that clown for, I don't know...30 or 40 minutes.

Quote:One thing that would be nice though, would be if you stop presuming that just because we don't believe your assumptions that makes us wrong. You jump to conclusions based on who the fuck knows. Don't assume that because we don't do that you are somehow more knowing than us. It's usually the opposite. Because we base our knowledge on facts and evidence whereas you only do when it's convenient. That makes you less knowledgeable.

We really do need a smiley of a pot calling a kettle black.

Quote:Also I didn't give you attitude so don't give me attitude.

I'm sorry. Weeping


[Image: tumblr_lyj5viO9T31r3jsrko1_400.jpg]

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2012, 04:33 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 01:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  As you can see, he is unable to even begin to answer the math and science questions. Waiting .....
You were wrong about being a Christian, maybe you're wrong about the Veri-dick-an stuff.

I have no idea what math and science questions you're talking about. And please don't ask me to watch YouTube videos. If you want to discuss something, discuss it. Otherwise, piss off. And just so you know, though I shouldn't have to tell you this, when I have a lot of responses, I glance over them and immediately rule out any that have insulting words or blasphemous comments. I won't even finish reading them, and I damn sure don't respond to them.
Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2012, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2012 04:55 PM by Question.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
If someone gives you a valid source of information and you 'piss it off ' then don't complain. Don't bother trying to provide an debate when you won't listen to or do research on your own - I gave you a documentary for a good reason, Egor. Mainly because it had nice pictures to attract your attention and it explained science terms from someone you can trust to explain it.

EDIT: Hell its not even that, you could have just asked me to take notes for you in the video, I wouldn't have minded taking my day on Saturday to do that for you. I'm not sure how you were raised, boy, but god be dammed if you lack manners.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 09:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  For the record, I've always believed in evolution and I've never been a YEC. Evolution at the molecular level shows incredible evidence for design, especially when that evidence is combined with the obviousness of irreducible complexity.

What evidence do you see for design, Egor? What do you see as the obviousness of irreducible complexity? What do you mean by irreducible complexity?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-04-2012, 11:49 PM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 04:48 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  If someone gives you a valid source of information and you 'piss it off ' then don't complain. Don't bother trying to provide an debate when you won't listen to or do research on your own - I gave you a documentary for a good reason, Egor. Mainly because it had nice pictures to attract your attention and it explained science terms from someone you can trust to explain it.

EDIT: Hell its not even that, you could have just asked me to take notes for you in the video, I wouldn't have minded taking my day on Saturday to do that for you. I'm not sure how you were raised, boy, but god be dammed if you lack manners.

I'm not watching a two hour video on YouTube. If you have a point to make, make it. It's all too easy to come in and post links to this or that instead of thinking for yourself. I don't want you to spend a Saturday taking notes, either. Do something fun.


(17-04-2012 05:27 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 09:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  For the record, I've always believed in evolution and I've never been a YEC. Evolution at the molecular level shows incredible evidence for design, especially when that evidence is combined with the obviousness of irreducible complexity.

What evidence do you see for design, Egor? What do you see as the obviousness of irreducible complexity? What do you mean by irreducible complexity?

The human body, or any animal body for that matter, is a great display of design. Irreducible complexity can be researched on Google and wikipedia. My favorite, however, is the blood clotting cascade in human beings and other mammals.
Quote this message in a reply
18-04-2012, 12:25 AM (This post was last modified: 18-04-2012 02:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 04:33 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 01:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  As you can see, he is unable to even begin to answer the math and science questions. Waiting .....
You were wrong about being a Christian, maybe you're wrong about the Veri-dick-an stuff.


I have no idea what math and science questions you're talking about. And please don't ask me to watch YouTube videos. If you want to discuss something, discuss it. Otherwise, piss off. And just so you know, though I shouldn't have to tell you this, when I have a lot of responses, I glance over them and immediately rule out any that have insulting words or blasphemous comments. I won't even finish reading them, and I damn sure don't respond to them.

Of course you don't know. You are such an idiot/meagalomaniac, you actually think god wants you to start a new religion. The Age of Religion is over. We already know you won't respond, ... moron, .....that's your MO...... because you can't. If you did it would be worthless. You expect people to read your piece-of-crap website, and batshit books, but you can't take two minutes and seventeen seconds, to watch a video that proves you wrong. Or the other video, that proves, from MRI imagaing, that your "free will" is bullshit. Of course you won't watch them. No one expected you to. You wouldn't understand them if you did. You're too stupid to deal with the facts. Now go away. Write some more crap. Don't you have some founding propheteering to do ?

For the others, with at least half a brain, I'll take a whack at explaining the HUGE Mathematical/Statistical/Genetics mistake, which is the foundation of the Behe book(s).

Michael Behe lost spectacularly in the 2005 Dover, Pennsylvania, Intelligent Design trial. He needed to "redeem" himself somehow, so he wrote a book. That book is called "The Edge of Evolution". He made a really serious statistical genetic error in the book, and was called out by everyone in the scientific community, and he refused to respond.

It's very easy to demonstrate evolution in the development of drug resistance in viruses, bacteria and Protozoan parasites, (which that quack of a nurse Egor would know, if he didn't get his RN degree on-line). Behe concedes the point that evolution works well at that level. His case study, repeated ad nauseam, deals with Malaria, the infectious parasitic Protozoan, which has bedeviled humans for thousands of years. Resistance to drugs such as Chloroquinone, (Quinine), has developed in the parasite, (Malaria), population, and so also, has genetic resistance, to the parasite, (Malaria), developed in humans. So.....if the inter-species genetic "conflict" between humans and Plasmodium, (Malaria), is actually a prime example of evolution, how can it be used to make the case for 'design' ? Alright, here we go.

The answer is found in the book's title. To Behe, the genetic changes in both host and parasite represent what he calls the absolute "limit" of what ("Darwinian") processes can accomplish, and mark what he calls the "edge of evolution". He describes these (well-understood) mutations as "trench warfare" in which parasite, (Malaria), and host, (Homo sapiens) both undergo a series of "destructive" mutations in cellular processes. These changes produce nothing new, but serve only to block the parasite, (or render the widely used drugs ineffective), by altering target proteins (or clearing damaged cells). The fact that thousands of years of "conflict" between parasite and host have produced nothing in the way of new, complex systems in either species is proof that this is all that evolution can do. They mark the "Limits of Darwinism", (according to Behe).

Behe asserts that this is an example of the necessity for design in complex systems. Behe asserts that Darwinism can't account for the complexity of life, and therefore design is required as an explanation. At the heart of his anti-Darwinian calculations are numbers that are not only wrong, but so spectacularly, (and humorously, ridiculously), wrong that his argument just falls apart, ("sui generis")...snort...love those Latin phrases... Tongue

Ok. Here's why. Behe uses the literature about Malaria to show that two amino-acid changes in the digestive-vacuole membrane protein (PfCRT...at positions 76 and 220) of Malaria are needed to provide the Chloroquinone(Quinine) resistance. From a report that spontaneous resistance to the drug can be found in roughly 1 parasite in 1020, he says that these are the odds of BOTH mutations arising in a SINGLE organism, and uses them to make this statement:

"On average, for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would need to wait a hundred million times ten million years. Since that is many times the age of the universe, it's reasonable to conclude the following: No mutation that is of the same complexity as chloroquine resistance in malaria arose by Darwinian evolution in the line leading to humans in the past ten million years."

Behe, unbelievably..stupidly, thought he had determined the odds of a mutation "of the same complexity" occurring in the human line. What he actually did, was to determine the odds of these two exact mutations occurring simultaneously at precisely the same position in exactly the same gene in a single individual. He then trys to make a reader think that this ridiculous mistaken calculation is a statistical "barrier" to the accumulation of enough variation to drive Darwinian evolution.

Every statistical genetecist, has agreed this is a HUGE mistake.

Behe obtains his numbers, (probabilities) by considering each mutation as an independent event, ruling out any role for "cumulative selection", and requiring evolution to achieve an exact, predetermined result. Not only are each of these conditions unrealistic, but they do not apply even in the case of his example. First of all, he overlooked the existence of Quinine-resistant strains of Malaria lacking one of the mutations he claims to be essential (at the position 220). This is important, because it shows that there are several mutational routes to effective drug resistance. Second, and most importantly, Behe dismissed evidence that Quinine resistance may be the result of sequential, not simultaneous, mutations, boosted by ARMD (accelerated resistance to multiple drugs) phenotype, which is itself drug induced.

I can't think of a similar mistake, this big, anywhere in a book in science. My Immunology professor would have flunked me for it. Behe has built his entire thesis on this error. He says that the production of a single new protein-to-protein binding site is "beyond the edge of evolution", and then he says Darwinian evolution to be a "hopeless failure". I guess he forgot about the studies re the evolution of hormone-receptor complexes by sequential mutations, the 'evolvability' of new functions in existing proteins, (studies on serum paraxonase (PON1) traced the evolution of several new catalytic functions), or the modular evolution of cellular signalling circuitry. Instead, he says that there is just one explanation that "encompasses the cellular foundation of life as a whole". That explanation, of course, surprise, surprise, is Intelligent Design.

At the risk of boring you to tears, I will finish this rant with this afterthought.

The stupid mistake, (above), is a lot like the claim in Behe's other piece of stupidity... "Darwin's Black Box". In that piece of trash, he said that complex, (biochemical) systems have a property he called "irreducible complexity". Irreducibly complex structures, such as the bacterial flagellum, could not have evolved because they lack any selectable function until ALL of their component parts are in place. He wrote, "any precursor to an irreducibly complex system is by definition nonfunctional", since every part of such a system had to be in place for natural selection to favour it. (Therefore, such structures must have been designed). Nice, except it's totally wrong. Subsets of proteins nearly identical to those in the flagellum do have "selectable functions", so he's just wrong. In the same book, Behe also said that every component of the irreducibly complex vertebrate blood-clotting system, (the coagulation cascade"....damn that was hard to memorize in Biochem) had to be present for the system to work properly. That argument went up in smoke, (woops), when Russell Doolittle's, (et al) showed that the Puffer fish, Fugu, lacks at least three clotting factors and still has a workable system. Such complete failure in the science of Behe's argument was one of the reasons they went down in such spectacular flames in the Dover trial.

Creationists who are so desperate to find a "necessary cause" LONG for a scientific shaman who will wave his/her wand, and help them overlook the parts of this piece-of-crap book that make them nervous, including Behe's admission that "common descent is true", and that our species shares a common ancestor with the Chimpanzee. They hope to (desperately) cling to Behe's stupidly mistaken calculations. What this book actually shows, is the desperation of the Intelligent Design movement as it continues to struggle to survive, in the complete absence of even one shred of scientific data supporting it. So now, despite this flawed science, and the philosophical and scientific error that a "cause" is required, when it has been shown that none is, or could be, (Krauss), the fact that Chaos Theory has demonstrated repeatedly in super-computer simulations that "complexity" is an illusion, and to say nothing of the theological/biblical error in using a mythological text as as historical source, (Genesis), they persist in this delusional pursuit.

Now, can we go back to talking about socks ? Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
18-04-2012, 01:19 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Blood clotting cascade, a wonderful example of signal amplification to me and a wonderful example of design to you.

Now, with regards to the problem of irreducible complexity, here's an interactive example to see how "irreducibly complex" mechanisms form.

STEP 1:
Go get the game "World of Goo"
STEP 2:
Play any level that involves building a bridge
STEP 3:
Build the bridge normally across the gap
STEP 4:
Now, slowly remove goo-balls from the bridge, while ensuring that the bridge does not collapse. Use time bugs to help you. Do it until no more goo-balls can be removed from the bridge.
STEP 5:
You should have a "skeleton" of the bridge, or in your own words, an "irreducibly complex" structure. Remove ONE single goo-ball and the whole structure collapses.
STEP 6:
Finish the whole game. It's worth your time.

That should serve as an illustration as to how "irreducibly complex" mechanisms and structures can be formed, step by step.

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like robotworld's post
18-04-2012, 03:24 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 11:49 PM)Egor Wrote:  The human body, or any animal body for that matter, is a great display of design. Irreducible complexity can be researched on Google and wikipedia. My favorite, however, is the blood clotting cascade in human beings and other mammals.
Just because you lack the wit to see the stages that something reduces to, doesn't mean it is, in fact, irreducible.

Argument from ignorance.

Fail.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-04-2012, 06:47 AM
 
RE: Are you guys insane?
bucky ball Wrote:Of course you don't know. You are such an idiot/meagalomaniac

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You have this massive long post, but this is your first sentence and I didn't read past it, and I won't. What a waste of time.


(18-04-2012 01:19 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Blood clotting cascade, a wonderful example of signal amplification to me and a wonderful example of design to you.

What?

Quote:Now, with regards to the problem of irreducible complexity, here's an interactive example to see how "irreducibly complex" mechanisms form.

STEP 1:
Go get the game "World of Goo"
STEP 2:
Play any level that involves building a bridge
STEP 3:
Build the bridge normally across the gap
STEP 4:
Now, slowly remove goo-balls from the bridge, while ensuring that the bridge does not collapse. Use time bugs to help you. Do it until no more goo-balls can be removed from the bridge.
STEP 5:
You should have a "skeleton" of the bridge, or in your own words, an "irreducibly complex" structure. Remove ONE single goo-ball and the whole structure collapses.
STEP 6:
Finish the whole game. It's worth your time.

That should serve as an illustration as to how "irreducibly complex" mechanisms and structures can be formed, step by step.

You've got to be kidding. That may be a way to get the appearance of an irreducibly complex structure, but you can't seriously suggest evolution works that way, much less the blood clotting cascade in mammals forming in that manner--and all within the time frame of the age of advanced animal life on the earth.


(18-04-2012 03:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  Just because you lack the wit to see the stages that something reduces to, doesn't mean it is, in fact, irreducible.

Argument from ignorance.

Fail.

And just because you want it to be doesn't mean it's true.

Faith.
Quote this message in a reply
18-04-2012, 07:00 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 04:33 PM)Egor Wrote:  Otherwise, piss off. And just so you know, though I shouldn't have to tell you this, when I have a lot of responses, I glance over them and immediately rule out any that have insulting words or blasphemous comments. I won't even finish reading them, and I damn sure don't respond to them.



Ahem. Piss off is polite, right? Shocking

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: