Are you guys insane?
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19-04-2012, 02:54 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2012 03:04 AM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
(16-04-2012 03:18 AM)Egor Wrote:  Are you guys insane? I don’t mean that from a professional perspective; I mean it in a gob-smacked-disbelief kind of way. I’m reading a book by Michael Behe called The Edge of Evolution and he shows in a plain, prima facie, mathematically necessary way that evolution of species is impossible in the strict Darwinian way.

Well I was going to talk about Behe himself but the reviews on his book will explain much more:
Reviews

Reviews by scientists, especially those working in the field of biology, have been highly critical, with Behe's methods, information and conclusions being rejected, though some reviews from creationists and some biologists have been more positive.

Negative reviews

University of Oxford evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins reviewed the book, concentrating his criticism on Behe's claim that random mutation, rather than nonrandom natural selection, was the driving force behind evolution. He also criticized Behe's claim that no amount of random mutation could bring about the diversity of life in existence today by pointing to several examples of selective breeding. Dawkins also states that Behe had failed to connect with the scientific research on his topic, that Behe's work would not pass the peer-review of a scientific journal and that Behe bypassed the peer-review process by publishing a popular book solely for a public, rather than scientific, audience.

The Edge of Evolution was reviewed, by prominent biologists, in The New Republic, Science and Nature with similar comments - that Behe appears to accept almost all of evolutionary theory, barring random mutation, which is replaced with guided mutation at the hand of an unnamed designer.

Other reviews have criticized Behe for misleading quote "mining, failing to offer a theory of intelligent design despite a ten-year gap since Darwin's Black Box, a logical contradiction between design and 'unbroken natural law', an erroneous model and ignoring publications and information that contradicts his theory. Singled out for specific criticism included the use of irrelevant calculations as sources, his assertion of the necessity of simultaneous mutations when evidence supports cumulative mutations, and ignoring the scientific literature on protein evolution."

Michael Ruse, professor of philosophy at Florida State University, found the book to contain no developments beyond what was offered in Darwin's Black Box, repeating arguments, ignoring and dismissing opposing arguments without analysis; comments echoed by others.

Positive reviews

Historian of religion (Lets make this clear that this man is a historian and not a scientist.) Cameron Wybrow wrote a review of Edge of Evolution published in The Philadelphia Inquirer, stating that the book "provides some hard numbers, coupled with an ingenious argument". Positive reviews also appeared in a variety of Christian publications, such as one in the Christian Post by minister Chuck Colson, in which he states:
I suggest you ignore the forces that would stifle all dissent, and take a look at Behe’s book The Edge of Evolution. Even if you do not agree with everything in it, as I do not, you do not need to follow the Darwinist line that everything you disagree with must be squashed.

— Chuck Colson, What Darwinism Can't Do

(16-04-2012 03:18 AM)Egor Wrote:  Chaotic chance mutations driven by natural selection just won’t produce even simple changes in a species in the time the universe has existed, much less will it change a fish into a bird or a monkey into a human. Not on it’s own, not without designed input.

There is no doubt that those of which are more suitable to their environment and live on to produce offspring will pass off their genes to their offspring. If a bird were too develop something that caused it to perform worse in its environment it would no longer exist since it is most likely to die off. We can actually see examples of evolution clearly. Dogs were bred to be what we wanted them too be. We made some to be small and evil like the Chihuahua or giant and lovable like the Mastiff. You can clearly see the lineage back towards the wolf. Another example can be the common banana which we humans actually developed as well.

Now you say it is chaotic but I see it as organized.What would be chaotic is if your genes didn't transfer at all and made no sense once you had a spaghetti monster newborn. That is chaotic.

(16-04-2012 03:18 AM)Egor Wrote:  I’m not against evolution. Far from it. I’m all for it because now I see that God has to exist because evolution is a fact.

I thought of this as well. I'll post a good video about it and don't worry Egor it is theist friendly. It would make sense for a being to create and perfect something rather than having it just randomly all exist. It would take a higher level of intelligence to do something this complex and have the patience to do so would make it wise. Having some being just blurt out everything and have it this imperfect doesn't make it look any smarter than a child rushing to build a Lego set. If God existed I would have liked to believe that she would take her time with us. Then I look at Rush Limbaugh and I understand that she didn't take too long.





(16-04-2012 03:18 AM)Egor Wrote:  So where are you guys (atheists) coming from? Why do you put so much stock in evolution. I'd be thinking you'd reject it. Bechased

Well Egor, to put it insanely bluntly. It has enough of what scientist call evidence in which it has solidified itself into a theory. Like gravity it could be wrong but I don't believe you will simply jump off a building. I believe we will believe things that show a great amount of evidence and believing some perfect deity that made imperfect beings just so it could roast a majority just for wanking off sounds outright ridiculous. Now you may say that when I put it that way I'm just attacking and making fun of which I most certainly am but the problem is that you seem so distraught over the fact that we question religion.

My question to you so great and powerful Egor who can speak with the Gods is why do you hate those who think rather than those who don't and blindly believe? I see questioning as something great our species can do and the problem is a majority of theists completely follow this doctrine without putting any thought into it. My father and mother knew absolutely nothing of their faith but they attended church regularly and are still proud members of the Catholic faith. I've spoken with them and assured them that my questioning should only make me stronger in my faith but in the end it began to eliminate it. Not because I ever turned away from God as you so constantly use but that the more I knew the less God was there. It was at that moment I became something I couldn't fathom. A Catholic boy who had gone to Sunday school every weekend and had read his prayers and holy book became a man who began to understand the world around him.

I'm not saying all theists are blind but the one's like KingChosen show that if there really is a God and having doubt and questioning should only make that belief that much stronger when you come to the conclusion you believe. As of yet I am still an Atheist. I understand your anger and hatred for something that hasn't ravaged the land quite as much as theism has allowed. I also understand the excuses of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin but they never had a piece of parchment that ever told them too Kill homosexuals, women or even infants. They acted on their own accord and I do as well. Without the belief I still do charity work, be nice and gentle and try to do what is good but I believe that even in the end, that I know, I will not be rewarded with eternal bliss(Some may call it hell since worshiping a deity for eternity isn't everyone's definition of heaven. A bit more like slavery but I'll save that for later.)

I believe Human beings should do what is right because they want too. Not because they want a reward. It would make a life more worthy if people meant those actions just because they wanted too.

Also, this is with my phone so dismiss any errors and space issues it is rather annoying with spellcheck. I still read and hope to reply to some other topics. I hope to have more free time.

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The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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19-04-2012, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2012 04:50 AM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
So Igor is over there complaining that Dawkins and Kraus are only capable of ad hominem, in a post entitled :

Dawkins and Krauss Sound Like Idiots.

Right. And instead of stating even one single reason why Darkins and Krauss are wrong, he bitches, and pontificates. Actually in the first half hour of the video he is bitching about, there is not ONE SINLGE ad hominam attack. Igor does not, apparently, know what that means. I guess religion founders get to foam at the mouth, and lie, with impunity. He can't handle the subject matter, and wants to play with the big boys, by sounding like he knows something .. anything..while being one of the MOST ignorant people on the planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...0U#t=1910s

"One is a physicist, the other is a biologist: What makes them qualified, or anymore qualified than you or I, to comment on whether or not God exists? If God exists, He has nothing to do with science, which is concerned with examining the natural world. And now, at about thirty-three minutes into the presentation they are disagreeing with each other over what is required for life to exist. So if they disagree, and they are the ultimate experts, then that implies there is no real knowledge to be had from them, only the sophistry of their language."

There you have it. The logic of the Igor.

"These days we are fragmented into experts to the point where no one thinks they are qualified to answer any questions for themselves. The fact is if you look at the world and see order in it, and if you think that implies God exists, you’re as qualified to make that observation as anyone else."

Say what ? What the hell does "we are fragmented into experts" even mean. Seriously ? Seriously ?

"We rely on scientists to give us our basis for knowledge, but look at what we don’t know: The most common aspects of our lives are still complete mysteries: How did life begin? Why does gravity work? Why do the galaxies stay together? Why is the universe expanding at an accelerated rate? What is consciousness? We might as well be living in the Dark Ages, only with our cell phones and lap tops"

Seriously ? Has he ever been to school ? Every one of those questions have answers, or partial answers. He trolls his own web site. He complains about ad hominenen, without even ONE ad hominem, in a post entitled "Dawkins and Kraus sound like Idiots". Seriously ?

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19-04-2012, 04:45 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(17-04-2012 11:49 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 04:48 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  What evidence do you see for design, Egor? What do you see as the obviousness of irreducible complexity? What do you mean by irreducible complexity?
The human body, or any animal body for that matter, is a great display of design. Irreducible complexity can be researched on Google and wikipedia. My favorite, however, is the blood clotting cascade in human beings and other mammals.
Now, let's turn this into science:
What specific predictions does your design model of irreducible complexity make? Do you propose as Behe seems to have that the component parts of irreducibly complex components have no other useful purposes?

In order to "know" something in science your model must make predictions that are distinct from the predictions of other models, and for those predictions to be borne out in practice. Can you point to a specific prediction of the design model that contradicts the naturalistic model, and show that the design model has won out over the naturalistic model?
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19-04-2012, 05:16 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2012 07:30 AM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
So here's the dumbed down version for someone with a very short attention span.

Behe : The limit or edge of Darwinian processes, is the age of the earth, (The Edge of Evolution). Nothing can take longer than 13-14 billion years. Design is necessary because the changes in the resistence of Malaria to Quinine in two places in it's genome would take longer than the age of the Earth.

Wrong. Behe is fucked up. This is why. The mutations didn't happen in the same individual, at the same time. The math is fucked, and the premise of his book is blown.

Would that be short enough ?

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19-04-2012, 05:33 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
Egor, I just can't get past my initial response... Why are you here?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
Poking sticks in a room full of atheists... (and expecting them to change to your way of thinking?)

Also, entire forumtopics have been dedicated to banning you.

I am an atheist, but evolution is a theory. Not all atheists believe in only evolution as formulated by Darwin and the big bang theory blindly.
Experiments and evidence have proven evolution in practice and the math for the big bang is there. But no one is absolutely certain (Go Large Hadron Collider!)

But earth being a petri-dish for aliens doing an anthropologic experiment is still just as likely (I don't believe that). But I guess the question then becomes where the aliens came from.

One thing I am sure of though!
The current religions are all based on earlier religions and through mistranslations and manipulations over centuries by very fallible men we can surely conclude it's all bullshit.
Prove manipulations? Joseph Smith. And assholes like him existed all throughout history so it's very likely that 2000 years ago someone whispered the wrong things to the right people.
Example: The Holy Roman Empire.

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19-04-2012, 06:47 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(19-04-2012 05:16 AM)San Onofre Surfer Wrote:  So here's the dumbed down version for someone with a very short attention span.

Behe : The limit or edge of Darwinian processes, is the age of the earth, (The Edge of Evolution). Nothing can take longer than 13-14 billion years. Design is necessary because the changes in the resistence of Malaria to Quinine in two places in it's genome would take longer than the age of the Earth.

Wrong. Behe is fucked up. This is why. The mutations didn't happen in the same individual, at the same time. The math is fucked, and the premise of his book is blown.

Would that short enough ?
Are you bucking for entry into the Terse and Deadly Society?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-04-2012, 07:22 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
What does the anti-evolutionary community mean by "there is no proof of evolution"? Do they want a video recording of an animal or plant actually transforming into something else?
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19-04-2012, 07:32 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2012 07:40 AM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Are you guys insane?
(19-04-2012 06:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-04-2012 05:16 AM)San Onofre Surfer Wrote:  So here's the dumbed down version for someone with a very short attention span.

Behe : The limit or edge of Darwinian processes, is the age of the earth, (The Edge of Evolution). Nothing can take longer than 13-14 billion years. Design is necessary because the changes in the resistence of Malaria to Quinine in two places in it's genome would take longer than the age of the Earth.

Wrong. Behe is fucked up. This is why. The mutations didn't happen in the same individual, at the same time. The math is fucked, and the premise of his book is blown.

Would that be short enough ?
Are you bucking for entry into the Terse and Deadly Society?


Where do I apply ? Speaking of "bucking"....I'm holding Bucky hostage in his basement, until he agrees to edits, (or hands over his password).

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19-04-2012, 07:55 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(19-04-2012 02:54 AM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Also, this is with my phone so dismiss any errors and space issues it is rather annoying with spellcheck. I still read and hope to reply to some other topics. I hope to have more free time.
Get out of here! You typed and posted all of this on a phone?! Kudos to you sir, kudos I say.

Lots of good points too by the way. I quite understand your finding no room for God in your world. Frankly the god of the bible isn't one I would want around anyway. (I liked your comparison of the Christian vision of an afterlife to slavery; the house niggas go to heaven, the rest of us work in the field .. of fire apparently.)

Admittedly one could read between the lines and assume the entire bible is the hodgepodge there is every reason to believe it to be. Then one could infer a God which we might rightly be sad never to meet. I was saddened to realize that the God I'd spent the first 10 years of my life trying to be worthy of, probably just wasn't there. I'm over it, how about you?

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19-04-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Are you guys insane?
(19-04-2012 07:22 AM)arbmouser Wrote:  What does the anti-evolutionary community mean by "there is no proof of evolution"? Do they want a video recording of an animal or plant actually transforming into something else?
If one can't or won't see the evidence, then there isn't any.
Or if one doesn't accept or understand scientific methodology, then the chain of evidence is opaque or invisible.

Their brains seem to turn off at any level more detailed than pure simplicity.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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