Poll: Which 'label' best describes you?
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Agnostic-atheist AND anti-theist
Agnostic AND anti-theist
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Are you really an atheist? - Poll now added!
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23-07-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
(23-07-2013 12:36 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 10:21 AM)6.9 Agnostic Wrote:  Personally, I consider myself to be agnostic, and an anti-theist. I don't think there's anything wrong with being agnostic, even though this is the thinking atheist website!

Agnostics are atheists.

What definitions are you using to assert this?
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23-07-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
(23-07-2013 12:34 PM)Hitched_Gibson Wrote:  I don't think I consider agnostic and atheist to be on the same scale...

This is the scale some of us are referring to. It's from Richard Dawkins’ book The God Delusion. I copy & pasted from a site, so if it's not the exact same verbiage as in the book I apologize.

1)Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2)De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3)Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4)Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5)Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6)De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7)Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

...
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23-07-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
(23-07-2013 12:39 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  ...
Am I an Atheist? If you must use a descriptive word, Atheism does relate... but what's the word for not believing in unicorns?


Do you play golf? If so, you're a golfer. I don't play golf, is there a word for this?!
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23-07-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
I'm an apathetic igtheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
There is no coherent definition of the word "god", that I've ever seen.
Until someone can cook one up, I'm not going to waste my time discussing the subject.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist & Levitating Yogi
Sent by Jebus to put the stud back in Bible Study.
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23-07-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
Welcome.

If pressed I would admit I'm atheist in terms I believe the bible is mostly false. Most of the main characters are made up, Abraham, Moses, Jesus -- etc. in fact there's probably more proof that John the baptist and Saul of Tarsus existed than jebus.

It's rather, to me, like someone saying, "I think killing is wrong." who cares what you think? But when you attach the claim to a higher authority...suddenly it has more merit. 'Moses said god told him killing is wrong.'

Now, when someone points out that Moses never existed then the whole thing begins to fall apart.

So when it comes to the bible I'm completely atheist -- and most other religions as well.

Now, if your going to set aside the bible and ask, "who started it all?" I can honestly say I don't know.

Is there something that "seeded" our universe or kick-started our own evolutionary path? I don't know. Is there an entity that exists outside time, and cares about me or think I should worship it? Probably not -- in fact I'd bet it's long gone.

In that regard I'm agnostic, because I leave the door open a crack to say, "yeah sure."

But again...to reinterate, the whole god of the bible eternal judgment with promise of heaven or hellfire? No.

The sun rises in the West and the bird shits on the coffeetable.


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23-07-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
(23-07-2013 12:36 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Pedantic OT maths follow! Liberal arts majors, avert your eyes!

In the real numbers, a real number is defined as any value that a converging infinite series (usually identified by virtue of being Cauchy, or being monotonic and bound in the direction of its monotonicity) might converge to. And if two different series converge to each other, then definitionally they both converge to the same real number, rather than to two different real numbers that happen to be a distance of 0 apart.

... actually, there's something like a half dozen DIFFERENT sets of axioms that serve to define the reals. But they're all EQUIVALENT, which for axioms means that they all produce the same results and each set of axioms can demonstrate all the other sets as theorems of itself, so no one's fussing over which one's the "right" set of axioms or the "true" definition. We're talking about the reals as being defined as the completion of the rationals. But another set of axioms doesn't exactly use a convergent series, but rather limits suprema, with every real number actually corresponding to the collection of every value less than the limit suprema of an upwardly bound set of rational numbers. A third set is much the same, but based on limits infinitum of sets with lower bounds. A fourth set of axioms simply states that a real number is the result of any well-defined function or operation, defined on the rationals and given specific parameters, that can be approximated to some rational number with arbitrary precision.

In any case, 6.999999........ (dammit, how do I superscript a bar in this format?) is equal to 7.00000000000..... in the rules about real numbers. You can say that this is equivalent the natural number 7, and this is true enough in that you can take a subset of the reals corresponding to the naturals and construct an isomorphism of this to the naturals for every operation defined on the naturals. But it is ALSO equal to 7, because the reals are defined as being an extension of the rationals, which are in turn an extension of the integers, which are in turn an extension of the naturals. This means that all those other sets that the reals are directly or indirectly based on are actually subsets of the reals. Therefore, the real number 7.0000000000.... is not only equivalent to the natural number 7, because the natural number 7 is in the reals. It must also equal 7.000.... by the rules of real numbers. And by the transitivity of equality, if 7 = 7.00000... = 6.99999.... then 7=6.9999....

Right; I don't disagree with a word of that.

But so long as my computer has finite memory I know which I'd prefer to use in calculations...
Big Grin

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23-07-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
Often times I use this to best visualize the stance on stuff. There's atheism (lack of belief in a god or gods) and theism (belief in a god or gods). You could toss in deism too but that still comes down to a deity of sorts. There's gnostic meaning you know or have knowledge. There is agnostic meaning you lack knowledge, don't know, or can't know.

When I hear someone say they're "just agnostic" it doesn't say much because every person I've talked to who takes that position has some sort of variance or bias to one side or the other, even if they are uncertain.

[Image: Agnostic+v+Gnostic+v+Atheist+v+Theist.png]

Whether or not Dawkins refutes being an atheist, or whether he calls himself an atheist is a moot point because it doesn't come down to the point of the argument of whether or not a person is an atheist or not.. sure, it's a fun thing to argue... "NUH UH! He is too an atheist!" or "NUH UH he's leaning towards theism!" or "MAYBE just maybe he's a deist!" or "MAYBE he wants to redefine something!"

At the end of the day, it doesn't explain everyone else's stance on where they are at.

I'd call myself an agnostic atheist. I don't know/can't know there is a god, but I find the lack of evidence enough to lack belief. Therefore I don't believe, it also means I don't care so much... so I suppose a dash of apatheism... some spend their day digging through holy books so they can refute them, but I don't really care about that crap anymore. So I don't bother. IMO myth is myth.

I think people who want to just call themselves agnostic don't like what comes with the word. I didn't for a long time. I don't really care, it doesn't bother me anymore. "I'm an agnostic atheist." meh, so there.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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23-07-2013, 12:53 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
As for on topic:

All such labels are useless without a coherent definition of God.

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23-07-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
(23-07-2013 12:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'm an apathetic igtheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
There is no coherent definition of the word "god", that I've ever seen.
Until someone can cook one up, I'm not going to waste my time discussing the subject.

That's it. Make up words so you can feel special. Dodgy

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
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23-07-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Are you really an atheist?
To me, the primary difference between someone who identifies as an agnostic and someone who calls them self an atheist isn't what they believe; it's how much they're willing to argue about what they believe. I think most of us agree that agnostics and atheists believe essentially the same thing since neither believe in god. Just like the average atheist, most agnostics hold evolutionary theory and the Big Bang theory as true, but atheists tend to understand these theories more thoroughly and they're more willing to argue about them with theists. If this isn't true, how often to we hear of agnostics arguing the "unknowable-ness" of god with any distinction between the arguments atheists tend to make?

As for the topic at hand: I consider myself 99.99% atheist and .01% deist. The only possible god I can imagine is one which doesn't involve itself in how the universe operates or the lives humans and other Earthly beings. The Christian god is demonstrably bullshit (since the Buybull contradicts itself and reality), and I don't really see the gods of other religions being viable, either.

“One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.”

- Bertrand Russel
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