Arguing For Gay Marriage
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28-10-2012, 05:33 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
It has a lot to do with "disgust" and "bitterness taste" !!!
Check this out.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ht=disgust

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28-10-2012, 06:42 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 10:48 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(28-10-2012 12:34 AM)Diablo666 Wrote:  Gay sex was once illegal in the US?

Gay sex was once illegal most everywhere in the world...

The mere idea of anyone, least of all the state, telling you what you should and shouldn't do in your bedroom, with a consenting and adult partner is still beyond my meagre comprehension.

Yeah but that's history for you I suppose.
"Rights" and a less intrusive state is a relatively new thing it seems.
The state has always had an invested interest in daily life of its citizens.

Prior to the world wars for example it was very much females stay at home males work. Then WW1/2 hit and women were forced into the labor force. Women discovered that they could actually do things for themselves. This and a lot of other things has meant that throughout the 1900's public opinion has shifted from a nanny state to very much "leave us the fuck alone" state. Power has somewhat shifted in regards to social policy.
The problem then is that while the majority of particularly young people now hold that opinion that state should stay out of the bedroom there are still a lot of older people who think that those are issues (what people do in the privacy of their own home) are still something for the government to control.

I saw some promising results the other night. 64% of young people would vote for Obama v 24% Romney. It's proof of how liberal young people are (socially anyway), not so much that they'd vote for Obama but more so that they wouldn't vote for Romney.
I thought my generation was fairly liberal, just wait for the next generation.. that's one giant rolling liberal sand storm.
My point is that its inevitable that things like gay marriage will be passed simply because public opinion is shifting. Thus, I'm not worried about it.

Quote:In a Democratic Republic, the right to marry or not marry anyone, of one's choice is an inalienable right.
The contract of "marriage" is a "legal" right in terms of *how* the civil contract is set up. It's an "inalienable right", or "natural right", to partner with the person of one 's choice.
Inalienable rights are not put up for votes, in a Democratic Republic. The Founders set up this system to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. There has never been, nor ever will be a vote on the right of opposite-sex couples to marry. Thus it's discrimination, a priori. The entire bullshit of putting this issue "up to a vote" is ignorance of the fundamental nature of the US system of government, and law.

All the arguments against are :
a. either religious, thus irrelevant, as they do not have the right to enshrine their religious views into law,
b. "protection of the children". There is not one study supporting this position.
c. the "natural law" argument, which has been proven wrong by science.

It's inevitable ANY discrimination, will be struck down, by the courts, just as Loving v Virginia was. There is no "compelling state interest" here, just as in the mixed racial marriage case.

At the end of Prop 8, the judge, (Walker), asked the plaintiff's attorney "how exactly does same-sex marriage threaten traditional marriage". He replied, "I don't know judge, I don't know".

Yeah I agree, this shouldn't be a "vote" thing, it should just be given by default.
It's passing through parliament here as we speak. The PM made it a "conscious" vote. Conscious votes are reserved for issues that are personal, ie: abortion, euthanasia and it means you vote how YOU (the individual member of parliament) want to no matter what your parties opinion is on the matter.
IMO, making it a conscious vote is offending. You're classing it with moral issues and this is NOT a moral issue, this is a simply issue of giving BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS
to those that should have had them ages ago.
It's like saying women should be aloud to vote is a 'moral' issue.

Quote:eah, I think that's a good point to make. I wonder if anti-gay-marriagers think somehow gay people will stop being gay if you don't let them marry, or something?

I never thought of that. I think you may be on the money with that one.

Being gay is nothing new. There wasn't less gay people in the 50's for example. It was just that being gay was frowned upon to the point where gay people would just ignore/suppress being gay.
How is that any better for society???


People just need to get over it. Dick's gonna go in ass, it's a fact of life.

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28-10-2012, 07:15 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 06:42 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I never thought of that. I think you may be on the money with that one.

Being gay is nothing new. There wasn't less gay people in the 50's for example. It was just that being gay was frowned upon to the point where gay people would just ignore/suppress being gay.
How is that any better for society???


People just need to get over it. Dick's gonna go in ass, it's a fact of life.
It's because of conversations I've had with religious relatives. They go on about gay being a choice, gay being a sin, gay being a phase some people go through who are "searching" or rebelling or some shit. So if they think it's a choice, I suppose they think gays can just choose not be gay anymore. Or they could go to those gay camps and learn how to be repressed. I've been told by certain people they "don't hate gay people " but they hate people "acting on their homosexual urges." So I am thinking, if they do understand that some people are born gay, they think they should just never be in a gay relationship or have sex with someone of the same sex.

Which brings me to the same old shit: why is it their business? Why must they spend so much thinking about other people having sex?
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28-10-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 07:15 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(28-10-2012 06:42 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I never thought of that. I think you may be on the money with that one.

Being gay is nothing new. There wasn't less gay people in the 50's for example. It was just that being gay was frowned upon to the point where gay people would just ignore/suppress being gay.
How is that any better for society???


People just need to get over it. Dick's gonna go in ass, it's a fact of life.
It's because of conversations I've had with religious relatives. They go on about gay being a choice, gay being a sin, gay being a phase some people go through who are "searching" or rebelling or some shit. So if they think it's a choice, I suppose they think gays can just choose not be gay anymore. Or they could go to those gay camps and learn how to be repressed. I've been told by certain people they "don't hate gay people " but they hate people "acting on their homosexual urges." So I am thinking, if they do understand that some people are born gay, they think they should just never be in a gay relationship or have sex with someone of the same sex.

Which brings me to the same old shit: why is it their business? Why must they spend so much thinking about other people having sex?

People are so fucking ignorant.
Saying gay people are at fault because they choose to be gay is like saying black being are at fault for being slaves (back in the day obviously) because they choose to be black.
OR if you wanna cut a little deeper to home, it's like saying women belong in the kitchen because women choose to be women.

Irrespective of it not being a choice, EVEN IF IT WAS, like you say, it's none of their god damn business.
If someone wants to dress up in bubble-wrap and chase around midgets as long as it's between two consenting adults and doesn't hurt anyone, IT'S NOBODIES GOD DAMN BUSINESS. (No I'm not saying that's what I wanna do...Dodgy, I'm just making a point) let alone the business of the government!

And what the fuck does any of this have to do with gay marriage anyway? To say gay marriage should be illegal because gay sex is wrong is like saying marriage should be illegal if the couple has sex for purposes other then that of reproduction which rules out a very large majority of people including over 60's (women), those that can't physically have a baby, those that have had the snip, those that enjoy the odd shag every now and then and pretty much anyone under 50.

Which about leaves... people who marry for green card, people who marry old 90 something guys for money, 50 something women who marry because they're desperate for a baby and.. nope that's about it.

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28-10-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
Yeah, I just can't wrap my head around why the government should care who's screwing whom, and how they are screwing, as long as it's between consenting adults.

Of course, all my relatives believe that I'm gay because I don't have a husband and 2.5 children at my ripe old age. Because that's why women exist: to be Christian baby cannons and to cook dinner for their husbands. Anyone who doesn't is part of a gay liberal conspiracy hell bent on persecuting the Christians and shitting all over the institution of marriage. Or so they seem to think.
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28-10-2012, 07:52 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 07:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If someone wants to dress up in bubble-wrap and chase around midgets

Oooooh. Now yer talking some hot stuff. Tongue Bubble wrap. Now that sounds fun.

One of the reasons gay people are hated so much is that every human on the planet has the potential for same-sex behavior. My straightest guy friends, when drunk, all admit under certain circumstances they would do it. Guys know that consciously, or unconsciously. Some women can't handle that fact, and many men can't handle that women find things about other women they could not provide. Kinsey proved the vast majority of humnas, at some point or other engage in it. It's not an either/or deal. It's a scale, or a bell curve distribution of a vast range of behaviors. There is no evidence that there is any increase or decrease. It exists in about the same percentages as it always has. It's STILL illegal in some states I think.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/03/texas...t-illegal/

https://www.google.com/search?q=kinsey+s...80&bih=670

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28-10-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 07:46 PM)amyb Wrote:  Yeah, I just can't wrap my head around why the government should care who's screwing whom, and how they are screwing, as long as it's between consenting adults.

Of course, all my relatives believe that I'm gay because I don't have a husband and 2.5 children at my ripe old age. Because that's why women exist: to be Christian baby cannons and to cook dinner for their husbands. Anyone who doesn't is part of a gay liberal conspiracy hell bent on persecuting the Christians and shitting all over the institution of marriage. Or so they seem to think.

"Christian baby cannon"
LOL.

Yip, people like things to be a certain set way. And Christians/Theists like things even more to be a certain set way. Anything that differs is immediately "wrong". Like putting salt in a cake instead of sugar.

Quote:Oooooh. Now yer talking some hot stuff. Tongue Bubble wrap. Now that sounds fun.

Just saw a Mythbusters episode where they wrapped Adam (one of the two mythbusters) up in bubble wrap and dropped him 15feet.

Quote:One of the reasons gay people are hated so much is that every human on the planet has the potential for same-sex behavior. My straightest guy friends, when drunk, all admit under certain circumstances they would do it. Guys know that consciously, or unconsciously. Some women can't handle that fact, and many men can't handle that women find things about other women they could not provide. Kinsey proved the vast majority of humnas, at some point or other engage in it. It's not an either/or deal. It's a scale, or a bell curve distribution of a vast range of behaviors. There is no evidence that there is any increase or decrease. It exists in about the same percentages as it always has. It's STILL illegal in some states I think.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/03/texas...t-illegal/

https://www.google.com/search?q=kinsey+s...80&bih=670

Isn't there many studies linking homphobia to homosexual urges?
Like, those that are homophobic are closer along the kensey scale (towards homsexuality) then people who are say 100% fine with homosexuality.

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28-10-2012, 08:05 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 08:02 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(28-10-2012 07:46 PM)amyb Wrote:  Yeah, I just can't wrap my head around why the government should care who's screwing whom, and how they are screwing, as long as it's between consenting adults.

Of course, all my relatives believe that I'm gay because I don't have a husband and 2.5 children at my ripe old age. Because that's why women exist: to be Christian baby cannons and to cook dinner for their husbands. Anyone who doesn't is part of a gay liberal conspiracy hell bent on persecuting the Christians and shitting all over the institution of marriage. Or so they seem to think.

"Christian baby cannon"
LOL.

Yip, people like things to be a certain set way. And Christians/Theists like things even more to be a certain set way. Anything that differs is immediately "wrong". Like putting salt in a cake instead of sugar.

Quote:Oooooh. Now yer talking some hot stuff. Tongue Bubble wrap. Now that sounds fun.

Just saw a Mythbusters episode where they wrapped Adam (one of the two mythbusters) up in bubble wrap and dropped him 15feet.

Quote:One of the reasons gay people are hated so much is that every human on the planet has the potential for same-sex behavior. My straightest guy friends, when drunk, all admit under certain circumstances they would do it. Guys know that consciously, or unconsciously. Some women can't handle that fact, and many men can't handle that women find things about other women they could not provide. Kinsey proved the vast majority of humnas, at some point or other engage in it. It's not an either/or deal. It's a scale, or a bell curve distribution of a vast range of behaviors. There is no evidence that there is any increase or decrease. It exists in about the same percentages as it always has. It's STILL illegal in some states I think.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/03/texas...t-illegal/

https://www.google.com/search?q=kinsey+s...80&bih=670

Isn't there many studies linking homphobia to homosexual urges?
Like, those that are homophobic are closer along the kensey scale (towards homsexuality) then people who are say 100% fine with homosexuality.

Don't know about "many". There are some.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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28-10-2012, 08:07 PM
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 08:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-10-2012 08:02 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  "Christian baby cannon"
LOL.

Yip, people like things to be a certain set way. And Christians/Theists like things even more to be a certain set way. Anything that differs is immediately "wrong". Like putting salt in a cake instead of sugar.


Just saw a Mythbusters episode where they wrapped Adam (one of the two mythbusters) up in bubble wrap and dropped him 15feet.


Isn't there many studies linking homphobia to homosexual urges?
Like, those that are homophobic are closer along the kensey scale (towards homsexuality) then people who are say 100% fine with homosexuality.

Don't know about "many". There are some.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

Yeah thought so.
Makes for a good laugh when you mention them to homophobes.
You wanna see someone get VERY defensive VERY quickly, mention those studies to a homophobe pratting on about how gays are wrong etc..

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29-10-2012, 02:26 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2012 04:07 AM by Vera.)
RE: Arguing For Gay Marriage
(28-10-2012 06:42 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yeah but that's history for you I suppose.
"Rights" and a less intrusive state is a relatively new thing it seems.
The state has always had an invested interest in daily life of its citizens.

I was going to say that another bit of history is that homosexuality was actually the higher form of love in Ancient Greece, though that would not be entirely correct, as it was more pederasty than sexual relations between two adults. Still, it is widely acknowledged that back then homosexuality did not carry the stigma Christianity would later bestow upon it.

(Though, to be fair, the way they viewed sex was not much healthier than the way fundamentalists and the homophobes of today see it; I mean, as long as people believe that sex is all about domination/submission, we are mighty screwed.)

Still, it is sad that we didn't inherit more of the Ancient Greek mentality and what we did take was not necessarily the best we could've chosen (Aristotle's ideas of the inferiority of women and Plato's Theory of Forms/Ideas No )

A funny (or sad) aside - modern Greeks tend to get all bent out of shape when it is suggested that Alexander the Great might have been bisexual. How's that for devolution...

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