Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
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19-04-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
I was hoping the more philosophically inclined could help me with what I consider a pretty good argument for the non-existence, in fact impossibility, of the Judeo-Christian concept of God. Here it is:
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The reason it is important to understand God as a monistic being is that a dualistic version of God is not actually possible. If God exists, He has to be monistic in nature. And this is critical information when it comes to believing in God. For if one doesn’t believe in God the way God is, they will eventually come to disbelieve in their false notion.

The human mind is designed to seek out the truth and reject falsehood. If a dualistic God is not actually possible, then one must compartmentalize that belief apart from their reason, and when they do, that compartmentalized belief will become subservient to all other beliefs. They will end up saying they believe in God and then living as if He doesn’t exist.

Here is the problem with a dualistic notion of God (Which, by the way is the Judeo-Christian concept of God). If before anything else existed there was only God, and if God created the universe apart from himself and out of nothing (dualism), then the space between God and His creation represents an absurd state. It is neither the only thing that exists (i.e., God), nor is it the created thing that exists (i.e., the universe). It is an independent state, a medium that is not created by God and is neither God nor that which God created.

If the space is considered part of God, then there is no separation between God and the universe, which results in monism. If the non-God space is part of the universe, then again, there is no separation between God and the universe and the result is monism.

Therefore, any theistic idea that does not consider God monistic in His nature is an absurd idea. By “absurd” I’m not trying to cast an aspersion on any religious person’s thinking; I’m referring to the concept of absurdity in philosophy which means an idea that is necessarily impossible.

If there is a medium in which God exists and then He creates His universe in that medium, and now they both exist in that medium, then there would have to be an explanation for the medium and for God. There would have to be a cause of God and of the medium he exists in.

The only way one gets free from the need for a cause of existence (contingency) is to be the one and only uncaused thing that existed before anything else. There can only be one uncaused ultimate thing. There can’t be two. The very fact that two things exist means that one thing isn’t the other, which means both are limited entities (because if nothing else, they are not each other).

If they are limited, it means they are derivative. That is they are in part like something that is not limited, and when we encounter something that is derivative, we call it contingent. Anything that is contingent cannot be God, which means we have to look beyond that contingent thing to find the ultimate thing.

And that’s the problem with a dualistic God. There is God; there is the universe, and there is that space in-between that is not God and not the universe; there is that medium. And that is why the traditional dualistic notions of God are absurd. Only a monistic nature is possible. In short, if there is anything that is not God, then God cannot be God, some other being must be God. When it comes to the Judeo-Christian concept of God, the space between God and the universe represents something that is not God and is not the universe, and yet presumably does not make God contingent. This is an absurdity.
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19-04-2012, 05:56 PM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2012 05:59 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
Perhaps I'm not the best to speak on the what can and can nots of a fictional idea... but if God is Omnipotent... How does this supposed medium matter?

Isn't the Judeo-Christian God supposedly Omnipotent.. It seems he is the bible except when it comes to creating a perfect being, solving his beings issues, and battling chariots of Iron.

How is there any limit's to a entity that can do everything, even which is beyond the imagination. Why is it impossible for God to create a universe outside of him he is not able to go inside of or at constantly directly apart of and not apart...

Also is the only thing God created the Universe? Is Heaven and Hell apart of the universe or on another plane. What's from God making another plane on the some function that works perfectly in his design.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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19-04-2012, 06:02 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(19-04-2012 05:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  battling chariots of Iron.
You ever tried that? It is pretty hard, man. Tongue

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20-04-2012, 01:25 AM
 
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(19-04-2012 05:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Perhaps I'm not the best to speak on the what can and can nots of a fictional idea... but if God is Omnipotent... How does this supposed medium matter?

Isn't the Judeo-Christian God supposedly Omnipotent.. It seems he is the bible except when it comes to creating a perfect being, solving his beings issues, and battling chariots of Iron.

How is there any limit's to a entity that can do everything, even which is beyond the imagination. Why is it impossible for God to create a universe outside of him he is not able to go inside of or at constantly directly apart of and not apart...

Also is the only thing God created the Universe? Is Heaven and Hell apart of the universe or on another plane. What's from God making another plane on the some function that works perfectly in his design.

Most people I've talked to feel that omnipotence only applies to that which is possible to do. So, if it is impossible for God to create something separate from Himself, it's not a diminishment of his omnipotence but rather a description of His nature. As for heaven and hell, they are part of the universe. The universe is traditionally meant to mean everything that has been created.
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20-04-2012, 03:54 AM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
Is this the beginning of Egor's transformation? Egor, you are questioning more and more things about God, Jesus, Bible... I'm afraid that you might be going into our direction. Slowly, but you are moving and our gravitational field is starting to affect your trajectory. Gooood, goooooood...

Muahahahaha...

Big Grin

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20-04-2012, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2012 07:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 03:54 AM)Filox Wrote:  Is this the beginning of Egor's transformation? Egor, you are questioning more and more things about God, Jesus, Bible... I'm afraid that you might be going into our direction. Slowly, but you are moving and our gravitational field is starting to affect your trajectory. Gooood, goooooood...

Muahahahaha...

Big Grin


Exactly. Egor isn't quite bright enough to realise it, but he just came out, ... as an atheist. This is not an argument against the Judeo-Christian god, it's an argumant against ANY god AT ALL. Well what do ya know. "Out of the mouths of babes".

Egor ... dear, please tell us how exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, how your god is any different that the one you just refuted.

(And isn't there something "wrong in Denmark" here ?) Methinks I smell a rat. That initial post was just not the same style, (sort of like the teacher, who all of a sudden sees some homework which is totally different in content and style .... we'll have to work on that one) hmmm.. good thing there are good literary search engines. When we find it, will report. Took a while, but the lights went on.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-04-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 01:25 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(19-04-2012 05:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Perhaps I'm not the best to speak on the what can and can nots of a fictional idea... but if God is Omnipotent... How does this supposed medium matter?

Isn't the Judeo-Christian God supposedly Omnipotent.. It seems he is the bible except when it comes to creating a perfect being, solving his beings issues, and battling chariots of Iron.

How is there any limit's to a entity that can do everything, even which is beyond the imagination. Why is it impossible for God to create a universe outside of him he is not able to go inside of or at constantly directly apart of and not apart...

Also is the only thing God created the Universe? Is Heaven and Hell apart of the universe or on another plane. What's from God making another plane on the some function that works perfectly in his design.

Most people I've talked to feel that omnipotence only applies to that which is possible to do. So, if it is impossible for God to create something separate from Himself, it's not a diminishment of his omnipotence but rather a description of His nature. As for heaven and hell, they are part of the universe. The universe is traditionally meant to mean everything that has been created.
If God is omnipotent, can he create a boulder that he cannot lift?

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20-04-2012, 10:28 AM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 09:10 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If God is omnipotent, can he create a boulder that he cannot lift?
That's seen as a pseudo task to many. Just ask God to kill himself. It doesn't go against the characteristic of being omnipotent. Then they'd say he's just immortal blah blah blah. Which means that being omnipotent isn't actually all powerful it's just doing everything in it's nature. Which some say is 10000% pointless and it makes humans omnipotent because I can't fly since I don't have wings so asking me to do that would be going against my nature Tongue

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20-04-2012, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2012 11:26 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 01:25 AM)Egor Wrote:  Most people I've talked to

(lame attempt at) Agumentun ad Populum fallacy.

"feel that omnipotence only applies to that which is possible to do".

Then by definition that god is NOT omni-potent. If anything is self limiting to a god, the god is, by definition, not infinite. Thanks for refuting any god.

God is a female. Please stop calling her a him. She'll get pissed, and send another tsunami, and kill more babies. So knock that shit off.

"As for heaven and hell, they are part of the universe. The universe is traditionally meant to mean everything that has been created."

Say what ? God "lives" in heaven. Where did she live before she created the universe, if heaven and hell are "part of the universe" ? Out beyond Andromeda...exactly where ? Oh, I forgot, she has a cabin up in Big Bear. Oh wait ...

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-04-2012, 11:17 AM
 
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
Well, this is why I posted this article in several atheist forums. Apparently there isn't anyone in here bright enough to discuss it. And frankly, this post wasn't intended to start a string of responses where I have to teach you about omnipotence, or why I'm not an atheist, etc. I actually hoped to learn something from someone.
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