Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
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20-04-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 11:17 AM)Egor Wrote:  Well, this is why I posted this article in several atheist forums. Apparently there isn't anyone in here bright enough to discuss it. And frankly, this post wasn't intended to start a string of responses where I have to teach you about omnipotence, or why I'm not an atheist, etc. I actually hoped to learn something from someone.


Typical Egor evasion. Whenever he can't answer a question, he retreats, like a coward, and whines. ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION. HOW IS THIS NOT AN REFUTATION OF YOUR GOD ALSO ?

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20-04-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 11:17 AM)Egor Wrote:  Well, this is why I posted this article in several atheist forums. Apparently there isn't anyone in here bright enough to discuss it. And frankly, this post wasn't intended to start a string of responses where I have to teach you about omnipotence, or why I'm not an atheist, etc. I actually hoped to learn something from someone.
You are the one coming into places and talking about imaginary concepts. Sorry if you can't get beyond the ideas you already have set in stone in your head.

If any of these in relation with God is true, who is the decider of what is real? You? the general People you speak of? That doesn't decide what Omnipotence would be. Why do you INSIST there can only be 1 initial cause to what God happens to be. In what way are you taking that as truth opposed to a different God origin hypothesis. You are postulated ideas without describing in any way why that would make more sense than alternatives.

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20-04-2012, 02:01 PM
 
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Typical Egor evasion. Whenever he can't answer a question, he retreats, like a coward, and whines. ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION. HOW IS THIS NOT AN REFUTATION OF YOUR GOD ALSO ?

I think you need a pill. You seem highly agitated. I'm not answering your questions, because I'm not derailing the post. If you can't respond to the post, then don't if no one can, fine, let it die. I've gotten some input in some of the places I've posted to help me modify my argument--just nothing from here.


(20-04-2012 12:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-04-2012 11:17 AM)Egor Wrote:  Well, this is why I posted this article in several atheist forums. Apparently there isn't anyone in here bright enough to discuss it. And frankly, this post wasn't intended to start a string of responses where I have to teach you about omnipotence, or why I'm not an atheist, etc. I actually hoped to learn something from someone.
You are the one coming into places and talking about imaginary concepts. Sorry if you can't get beyond the ideas you already have set in stone in your head.

If any of these in relation with God is true, who is the decider of what is real? You? the general People you speak of? That doesn't decide what Omnipotence would be. Why do you INSIST there can only be 1 initial cause to what God happens to be. In what way are you taking that as truth opposed to a different God origin hypothesis. You are postulated ideas without describing in any way why that would make more sense than alternatives.

I'm not trying to debate the existence of God. I'm trying to debate what the nature of God must be like if He exists. Most atheists can't do that. They can't talk about God even hypothetically. They have to always be fighting and insulting and trying to bully people and shout people down. I'm looking for information to help modify my argument or to refine it. If you can't provide that then we have nothing to discuss in this string.
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20-04-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
The problem for me is you're saying

"If God exists then he must have these characteristics, which are not possessed by the Judeo-Christian God"

the reason that's a problem for me is, I'm just not that motivated to go into hypothetical arguments. I don't have any stake in this because before we do the "God must have these characteristics" dance, I'd like to start with "is there any reason for me to suspect that he does exist?", because arguing about something that doesn't exist seems pointless to me.

I know you believe that God exists, which makes the argument relevant for you, but I really think Christians are the kind of people you need to ask this question. For me I settled in my own mind a long time ago that Judeo-Christian God seemed extremely unlikely, so without that first premise my motivation for thinking through the argument is diminished...

Especially with paragraphs like this:
Quote:If before anything else existed there was only God, and if God created the universe apart from himself and out of nothing (dualism), then the space between God and His creation represents an absurd state. It is neither the only thing that exists (i.e., God), nor is it the created thing that exists (i.e., the universe)
What is this space between God and his creation? Does this concept make sense? Why would there be a space? A physical space? A gap of 1 cm? So God created all the 1 cm gaps in the universe ??? God of the gaps? (Sorry couldn't resist Tongue ) It just seems like... I don't know the kind of down-the-rabbithole thinking that I try to avoid. It's... essentially meaningless to me. As I said, I'm still not sold on God so it seems premature to start discussing his essential characteristics...

Yeah - like I said, with this type of an argument you might have more luck on a Christian forum - if they don't ban you for stirring Wink Sorry to not be more helpful Smile
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20-04-2012, 03:59 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 02:01 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-04-2012 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Typical Egor evasion. Whenever he can't answer a question, he retreats, like a coward, and whines. ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION. HOW IS THIS NOT AN REFUTATION OF YOUR GOD ALSO ?

I think you need a pill. You seem highly agitated. I'm not answering your questions, because I'm not derailing the post. If you can't respond to the post, then don't if no one can, fine, let it die. I've gotten some input in some of the places I've posted to help me modify my argument--just nothing from here.


(20-04-2012 12:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are the one coming into places and talking about imaginary concepts. Sorry if you can't get beyond the ideas you already have set in stone in your head.

If any of these in relation with God is true, who is the decider of what is real? You? the general People you speak of? That doesn't decide what Omnipotence would be. Why do you INSIST there can only be 1 initial cause to what God happens to be. In what way are you taking that as truth opposed to a different God origin hypothesis. You are postulated ideas without describing in any way why that would make more sense than alternatives.

I'm not trying to debate the existence of God. I'm trying to debate what the nature of God must be like if He exists. Most atheists can't do that. They can't talk about God even hypothetically. They have to always be fighting and insulting and trying to bully people and shout people down. I'm looking for information to help modify my argument or to refine it. If you can't provide that then we have nothing to discuss in this string.
It is boiled down to one issue. There is no reasoning for the concept you presuppose "must be". You have to explain why God must not be able to have this dualistic nature of being, medium between God and Universe, or multiple initial starting points to these concepts.

The impossibility of talking hypothetically is when you can see through the supposed set rules. You have to define why there is a rule to begin the discussion of: How this is absurdity because of the rule.

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20-04-2012, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2012 08:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 02:01 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(20-04-2012 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Typical Egor evasion. Whenever he can't answer a question, he retreats, like a coward, and whines. ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION. HOW IS THIS NOT AN REFUTATION OF YOUR GOD ALSO ?

I think you need a pill. You seem highly agitated. I'm not answering your questions, because I'm not derailing the post. If you can't respond to the post, then don't if no one can, fine, let it die. I've gotten some input in some of the places I've posted to help me modify my argument--just nothing from here.


(20-04-2012 12:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are the one coming into places and talking about imaginary concepts. Sorry if you can't get beyond the ideas you already have set in stone in your head.

If any of these in relation with God is true, who is the decider of what is real? You? the general People you speak of? That doesn't decide what Omnipotence would be. Why do you INSIST there can only be 1 initial cause to what God happens to be. In what way are you taking that as truth opposed to a different God origin hypothesis. You are postulated ideas without describing in any way why that would make more sense than alternatives.

I'm not trying to debate the existence of God. I'm trying to debate what the nature of God must be like if He exists. Most atheists can't do that. They can't talk about God even hypothetically. They have to always be fighting and insulting and trying to bully people and shout people down. I'm looking for information to help modify my argument or to refine it. If you can't provide that then we have nothing to discuss in this string.

Nah, I'm not aggitated, (and even if I wew, THAT statement is just MORE evation), and the reason you're not answering anything, ever, is because you can't. You just want the arguments to your new god answered, a priori, because you're are afraid they'll get shot down, when you propose your new god ..... oh great prophet. You always say you're not going to respond for whatever the new reason "du jour" is , (too long, ... on You Tube, not derailing whatever... bla bla bla), whatever you happen to cook up, because you can't really argue the questions raised, and are afraid or incapable of reasoning. We are quite used to your continually side-stepping all questions. No one expects to to provide an argument, any more.

Why would anyone want to discuss the "nature" of a god ? Do you know what a ridiculous statement that is ? Have you never taken a Philosophy course ? There is no point in discussing the "existence" of a god, because every thing about defining a "nature" is an exercise in futility, and "existence" ...well never mind. You wouldn't get it. Defining the "nature" of a god, is ipso facto self-defeating, because the very act of definition, means it's then not infinite. Maybe someday you will learn some critical thinking, about what you say, and then refuse to talk about or debate, (I won't hold my breath). So, yeah, (according to your website), how about taking the decade off, instead of the weekend. The reason some are insulting to you, is because your thinking is so juvenile, and because of YOUR past behaviors. You seriously are deluded enough to think you're going to come up with an original idea of a god, (even after refuting the only one left). But please, do the world a favor, and keep VERY VERY BUSY, writing about, and cooking up your new god, and then explain why she waited so long to reveal herself through the likes of YOU. Attempts have been made to get you to support your assertions about free will, and Behe, and many other subjects. You have evaded ALL of them, because you simply can't argue your position. And NOW, you want us to do you arguing for you.

Are you planning an "event", like coming down from the mountain, with tablets, and horns, and fire flashing, for your revelation ? Maybe at least burn the bush in your back yard ?




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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-04-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
Egor,

Philosophy is useful in identifying possibilities, but rarely useful for ruling them out. We have small minds that are only as smart as they have needed to be for us to fill our ecological an societal niches. For any impossible thing we can philosophically ask "well, if that impossible thing were true then...?" as you have done here in this thread.

You are saying "if impossible thing A then impossible thing B cannot be true". Well fuck that. Why not talk about a universe where impossible thing A and impossible thing B are true. Maybe you're just too stupid to figure it out.

That's why philosophy in general which is not constrained by evidence is eventually pointless, and gives way to science which is constrained to follow the evidence. There is no evidence for your impossible god, nor is there evidence for the impossible Judeo-Christian god. There is no evidence that if one existed that the other would be excluded. It's all silly posturing because we don't know the nature of "stuff" outside our universe, nor whether or to what extent the physical laws of this universe would extend outside the universe. There's no point arguing which person's irrational and unevidenced viewpoint is the most ridiculous. They all are.
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20-04-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 02:01 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'm not trying to debate the existence of God. I'm trying to debate what the nature of God must be like if He exists. Most atheists can't do that. They can't talk about God even hypothetically. They have to always be fighting and insulting and trying to bully people and shout people down. I'm looking for information to help modify my argument or to refine it. If you can't provide that then we have nothing to discuss in this string.
Talking about the nature of God or about God hypothetically is just plain boring. It is doubtful that any gods exist, so speculating on the nature, motivations, limitations, characteristics, etc. is simply not fruitful or interesting to this atheist.
What are you looking for from atheists that is of use in your concept of God? Really, you and KC continually amaze me by your asking us about your gods.

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21-04-2012, 12:54 AM
 
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
(20-04-2012 03:27 PM)morondog Wrote:  The problem for me is you're saying

"If God exists then he must have these characteristics, which are not possessed by the Judeo-Christian God"

the reason that's a problem for me is, I'm just not that motivated to go into hypothetical arguments.

Then don't...and yet, here you are.


Quote: I don't have any stake in this because before we do the "God must have these characteristics" dance, I'd like to start with "is there any reason for me to suspect that he does exist?", because arguing about something that doesn't exist seems pointless to me.

Okay, sure there is: If God is possible, then God is necessary. God would have to be impossible in order to not exist, because God is the basis of all existence.

Now you have a reason. But if that isn't enough, then why are you even responding to this post. I wanted a critique; I don't want to get into God's existence. We can do that later. If you have no critique, just walk away.

I know you believe that God exists, which makes the argument relevant for you, but I really think Christians are the kind of people you need to ask this question.

I have. In Christian Forums.net (or maybe org) I have encountered mainly hostility and a general lack of education and/or intelligence so that they generally have had nothing to offer.

Quote:For me I settled in my own mind a long time ago that Judeo-Christian God seemed extremely unlikely, so without that first premise my motivation for thinking through the argument is diminished...

So you keep saying...and yet, here we go:

Quote:What is this space between God and his creation? Does this concept make sense? Why would there be a space? A physical space? A gap of 1 cm?

Well that's just it: the gap may be infintesimally small. Perhaps it could be shown as a kind of asymptote: the more you try to define the space the smaller it gets. Nevertheless, if there is no space, if it equals 0, then monism results--and thus the Christian concept of God is refuted. If the space is >0, then an absurdity exists in the concept of God, and again, the Christian concept is refuted. Therefore, only monisim is possible, QED.


Quote: Did created all the 1 cm gaps in the universe ??? God of the gaps? (Sorry couldn't resist Tongue ) It just seems like... I don't know the kind of down-the-rabbithole thinking that I try to avoid.

Well maybe the extent of human knowledge requires one to go down the rabbit hole. In fact if a rabbit hole exists and you won't go down it, how can you call yourself a thinking man? You can't. You have to admit you're an intellectual coward and live with it (I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that's the result.).


Quote:It's... essentially meaningless to me. As I said, I'm still not sold on God so it seems premature to start discussing his essential characteristics...

Then just step aside.

Quote:Yeah - like I said, with this type of an argument you might have more luck on a Christian forum - if they don't ban you for stirring Wink Sorry to not be more helpful Smile


Actually, you did help me clarify my thoughts on it a bit, so you have been of help to me. And for that I say, thanks much. Hug



(20-04-2012 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Talking about the nature of God or about God hypothetically is just plain boring.

And yet here you are continuing to talk about it.

Quote:It is doubtful that any gods exist, so speculating on the nature, motivations, limitations, characteristics, etc. is simply not fruitful or interesting to this atheist.

Yeah, it shows. Rolleyes


Quote:What are you looking for from atheists that is of use in your concept of God? Really, you and KC continually amaze me by your asking us about your gods.


Because you are even more interested in God than we are.

And atheists tend to think more critically than Christians, not all atheists, but many.
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21-04-2012, 01:55 AM
 
RE: Argument Against the Judeo-Christian God
Just an update: Christianforums.com removed this post. So, the only people I can discuss it with now are atheists. Christians are extremely weak in defense of their faith. It's like I said, if one holds an impossible belief, they will eventually come to disbelieve it. I honestly believe most Christians do not believe their religion. They may say they do, but they will always live like they don't.
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