Argument I don't understand
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08-10-2014, 10:09 AM
Argument I don't understand
I recently came across a post on another forum and I came to thinking about this. It's an argument I don't really understand.

The argument was: in nature there are certain patterns and numbers that keep appearing. This means god must be doing it.

When I was in physics I was made to do experiments and equations to derive G (not to be confused with g, acceleration due to gravity, though we did that too). In chemistry, I was taught about e. I understand these "fine tuned" constants, and many of them are simply relations between different things. Why does this indicate God? It's simply how we observe the universe.

They argue that some things in nature form patterns. Yes. Matter acts a certain way. We are pattern seeking animals and we tend to seek out recurring patterns and use them because it is convenient for us. How does this indicate a God exists?

I've never understood this argument. It seems nonsensical to me.
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08-10-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
The common person doesn't understand that we are evolutionary influenced to be quality at seeing patterns or seeing patterns where there are none for our survival... so they attribute these concepts to a higher force.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-10-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(08-10-2014 10:09 AM)natachan Wrote:  I've never understood this argument. It seems nonsensical to me.

It is nonsensical. I see elements of Cherry Picking, the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, and God of the Gaps in there. No proof of God, just a lot of presupposition with no less than three informal logic fallacies tacked on top.
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08-10-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
just because it recurring doesn't mean god did it, thats just a cop out

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm just passing time now Drinking Beverage

X denotes the recurring phenomena
Y denotes god explanation
A denotes testable predictions made by Y
Z denotes results of A
B denotes conclusion derived from Z which supports Y after testing


Y offers no predictions 'A'
since Z = nothing so Z =/= A
also B therefore can't exist since B requires Z which requires A
therefore B =/= A
as B =/= A therefore Y =/= X

so will this confuse a creationist ? I didn't really put much thought into this
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08-10-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(08-10-2014 10:09 AM)natachan Wrote:  I recently came across a post on another forum and I came to thinking about this. It's an argument I don't really understand.

The argument was: in nature there are certain patterns and numbers that keep appearing. This means god must be doing it.

When I was in physics I was made to do experiments and equations to derive G (not to be confused with g, acceleration due to gravity, though we did that too). In chemistry, I was taught about e. I understand these "fine tuned" constants, and many of them are simply relations between different things. Why does this indicate God? It's simply how we observe the universe.

They argue that some things in nature form patterns. Yes. Matter acts a certain way. We are pattern seeking animals and we tend to seek out recurring patterns and use them because it is convenient for us. How does this indicate a God exists?

I've never understood this argument. It seems nonsensical to me.
I've heard this too with respect to the Golden Ratio and the Fibonacci Sequence. It's putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. Things in nature show similar patterns because they all have to fit within this universe and its laws. If you're looking in a glass of chocolate milk, surprise surprise each drop shows similar characteristics. Plus, the patterns and numbers aren't as perfect as they would have us believe either.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-10-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(08-10-2014 11:29 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 10:09 AM)natachan Wrote:  I recently came across a post on another forum and I came to thinking about this. It's an argument I don't really understand.

The argument was: in nature there are certain patterns and numbers that keep appearing. This means god must be doing it.

When I was in physics I was made to do experiments and equations to derive G (not to be confused with g, acceleration due to gravity, though we did that too). In chemistry, I was taught about e. I understand these "fine tuned" constants, and many of them are simply relations between different things. Why does this indicate God? It's simply how we observe the universe.

They argue that some things in nature form patterns. Yes. Matter acts a certain way. We are pattern seeking animals and we tend to seek out recurring patterns and use them because it is convenient for us. How does this indicate a God exists?

I've never understood this argument. It seems nonsensical to me.
I've heard this too with respect to the Golden Ratio and the Fibonacci Sequence. It's putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. Things in nature show similar patterns because they all have to fit within this universe and its laws. If you're looking in a glass of chocolate milk, surprise surprise each drop shows similar characteristics. Plus, the patterns and numbers aren't as perfect as they would have us believe either.

Thanks Impulse. That was helpful!
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08-10-2014, 12:54 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
EXISTENCE EXISTS THEREFORE GOD

CHECKMATE ATHEISTS

...

No, it isn't any more of an argument than that.
(well; "argument", as it were...)

... this is my signature!
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08-10-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(08-10-2014 12:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  EXISTENCE EXISTS THEREFORE GOD

CHECKMATE ATHEISTS

...

No, it isn't any more of an argument than that.
(well; "argument", as it were...)

it is an argument................. its just a incredibly stupid argument thats we and so many others have refuted so many times that making fun of it is more productive then explaining why its wrong
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08-10-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
The argument is

"Existence is *so unlikely* to have occurred by the mechanism that the evil scientists have proposed that it *must* have been God who done it".

Ignoring that the maker of the argument is frequently ignorant of the proposed theories and sucks the "probabilities" out of their ass.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-10-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
I would more likely point to patterns in the scriptures as evidence of God's fingerprints on the work. But I thank the creator for making what we call laws of physics, math and etc. to help prevent me from injuring myself--to help me do work--to help me at play or rest.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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