Argument I don't understand
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31-10-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 05:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You're missing the point, because you need context. I was thinking of an otherwise prosperous middle class couple with a home and children. They ran into fiscal trouble but kept the news a secret. They tithed, bought no groceries and planned fasts, twice, and bags of groceries appeared at the doorstep.

Since posting, I've thought some more about it. The real miracles are the healings I've seen emotional and physical and the love of the church amongst itself and to the world--the born again church.

Complete nonsense and unjust at it's core, this supposed god didn't even see fit to use some of his apparently very limited power and feed a starving child or cure a kid from cancer. Nope, he looked down and decided to help out a mildly inconvenienced family in middle-class America. Nice going YHWH, you're a first class jerk!

You've demonstrated quite an ability to be blind to the cause of events that occur around you, if a bag of groceries shows up on their doorstep there are obvious things you can conclude about that:

1. A person went to a grocery store and bought the groceries.
2. This person knew their address.
3.This person knew of their circumstances.

Honestly, do you choose not to engage any critical faculties here because you REALLY want to believe?

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer.

Yes, 1, 2 and 3 are logical possibilities which I eliminated by discussing this with the participants. But note carefully that neither of us placed this as coincidence--likely because it happened twice.

The importance of this and circumstances like it has to do with the testability of God re: tithing and giving. In all the trouble in the American economy and around the world since late '88, not one Christian I know from among hundreds who is a giver has lost a home or faced any severe financial trials. I myself have many testimonies of being without employment but covered by God.

As for your other comments, there are many starving children and cancer sufferers who receive blessings from men and God--and food. We would agree we can find anecdotes--I'm saying I've found through hundreds of iterations (if not thousands) that God blesses tithers. So, how much anecdotal evidence would you need before trusting something as testable and verifiably proved? Or put another way, what kind of control would you request that I add to my experiment so that I may view the results skeptically with my empirical mind?

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-10-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 05:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Complete nonsense and unjust at it's core, this supposed god didn't even see fit to use some of his apparently very limited power and feed a starving child or cure a kid from cancer. Nope, he looked down and decided to help out a mildly inconvenienced family in middle-class America. Nice going YHWH, you're a first class jerk!

You've demonstrated quite an ability to be blind to the cause of events that occur around you, if a bag of groceries shows up on their doorstep there are obvious things you can conclude about that:

1. A person went to a grocery store and bought the groceries.
2. This person knew their address.
3.This person knew of their circumstances.

Honestly, do you choose not to engage any critical faculties here because you REALLY want to believe?

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer.

Yes, 1, 2 and 3 are logical possibilities which I eliminated by discussing this with the participants. But note carefully that neither of us placed this as coincidence--likely because it happened twice.

The importance of this and circumstances like it has to do with the testability of God re: tithing and giving. In all the trouble in the American economy and around the world since late '88, not one Christian I know from among hundreds who is a giver has lost a home or faced any severe financial trials. I myself have many testimonies of being without employment but covered by God.

As for your other comments, there are many starving children and cancer sufferers who receive blessings from men and God--and food. We would agree we can find anecdotes--I'm saying I've found through hundreds of iterations (if not thousands) that God blesses tithers. So, how much anecdotal evidence would you need before trusting something as testable and verifiably proved? Or put another way, what kind of control would you request that I add to my experiment so that I may view the results skeptically with my empirical mind?

Thanks.

So did god put those grocery bags there? Did he know what brands to conjour? Does he use generic brands? Why put them in a bag on the street? Why didn't he make the food appear directly in the refrigerator?

Is there a use by date on the food like they put on at the factory? Or is there no expiry date cos God made it appear?

Did he make it contain all the artificial additives or is it pure unprocessed food?

Did you ask yourself any of these questions?
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31-10-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 05:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Complete nonsense and unjust at it's core, this supposed god didn't even see fit to use some of his apparently very limited power and feed a starving child or cure a kid from cancer. Nope, he looked down and decided to help out a mildly inconvenienced family in middle-class America. Nice going YHWH, you're a first class jerk!

You've demonstrated quite an ability to be blind to the cause of events that occur around you, if a bag of groceries shows up on their doorstep there are obvious things you can conclude about that:

1. A person went to a grocery store and bought the groceries.
2. This person knew their address.
3.This person knew of their circumstances.

Honestly, do you choose not to engage any critical faculties here because you REALLY want to believe?

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer.

Yes, 1, 2 and 3 are logical possibilities which I eliminated by discussing this with the participants. But note carefully that neither of us placed this as coincidence--likely because it happened twice.

The importance of this and circumstances like it has to do with the testability of God re: tithing and giving. In all the trouble in the American economy and around the world since late '88, not one Christian I know from among hundreds who is a giver has lost a home or faced any severe financial trials. I myself have many testimonies of being without employment but covered by God.

As for your other comments, there are many starving children and cancer sufferers who receive blessings from men and God--and food. We would agree we can find anecdotes--I'm saying I've found through hundreds of iterations (if not thousands) that God blesses tithers. So, how much anecdotal evidence would you need before trusting something as testable and verifiably proved? Or put another way, what kind of control would you request that I add to my experiment so that I may view the results skeptically with my empirical mind?

Thanks.

Anecdotes are all you'll ever have, because if you ever reach a point where you want to know, you'll realize these anecdotes are meaningless. If your god is willing to act and perform miracles, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate this in the real world and not stories based upon biased perception and hearsay.

We could do an experiment, I could place a marble on a Chinese checkerboard with a plastic cover over it. The marble would sit in one of the indentations on the board and would be monitored for a few days by a video camera. You could get your entire church to pray for that marble to move, we'll see if it moves while under video surveillance. If I can verify that it's not an earthquake or wind that moved it, I guess that would be your god affecting the marble.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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31-10-2014, 02:47 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 02:21 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 10:00 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, 1, 2 and 3 are logical possibilities which I eliminated by discussing this with the participants. But note carefully that neither of us placed this as coincidence--likely because it happened twice.

The importance of this and circumstances like it has to do with the testability of God re: tithing and giving. In all the trouble in the American economy and around the world since late '88, not one Christian I know from among hundreds who is a giver has lost a home or faced any severe financial trials. I myself have many testimonies of being without employment but covered by God.

As for your other comments, there are many starving children and cancer sufferers who receive blessings from men and God--and food. We would agree we can find anecdotes--I'm saying I've found through hundreds of iterations (if not thousands) that God blesses tithers. So, how much anecdotal evidence would you need before trusting something as testable and verifiably proved? Or put another way, what kind of control would you request that I add to my experiment so that I may view the results skeptically with my empirical mind?

Thanks.

Anecdotes are all you'll ever have, because if you ever reach a point where you want to know, you'll realize these anecdotes are meaningless. If your god is willing to act and perform miracles, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate this in the real world and not stories based upon biased perception and hearsay.

We could do an experiment, I could place a marble on a Chinese checkerboard with a plastic cover over it. The marble would sit in one of the indentations on the board and would be monitored for a few days by a video camera. You could get your entire church to pray for that marble to move, we'll see if it moves while under video surveillance. If I can verify that it's not an earthquake or wind that moved it, I guess that would be your god affecting the marble.

I'm going above and beyond to resolve this god question:

[Image: ChCheckers_zpse1c0cf34.jpg]

Those three marbles are sitting there waiting for your god to move them, your god's preference for which color your god would like to move. Just get your church to storm the gates of heaven with their prayers to move one of those little marbles out of it's indentation.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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31-10-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 02:47 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 02:21 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Anecdotes are all you'll ever have, because if you ever reach a point where you want to know, you'll realize these anecdotes are meaningless. If your god is willing to act and perform miracles, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate this in the real world and not stories based upon biased perception and hearsay.

We could do an experiment, I could place a marble on a Chinese checkerboard with a plastic cover over it. The marble would sit in one of the indentations on the board and would be monitored for a few days by a video camera. You could get your entire church to pray for that marble to move, we'll see if it moves while under video surveillance. If I can verify that it's not an earthquake or wind that moved it, I guess that would be your god affecting the marble.

I'm going above and beyond to resolve this god question:

[Image: ChCheckers_zpse1c0cf34.jpg]

Those three marbles are sitting there waiting for your god to move them, your god's preference for which color your god would like to move. Just get your church to storm the gates of heaven with their prayers to move one of those little marbles out of it's indentation.

A far cry from proper significant double-blind controlled investigation...

... but probably good enough for Randi's million!

I have faith in this experiment.
Sleepy

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31-10-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 02:47 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I'm going above and beyond to resolve this god question:

[Image: ChCheckers_zpse1c0cf34.jpg]

Those three marbles are sitting there waiting for your god to move them, your god's preference for which color your god would like to move. Just get your church to storm the gates of heaven with their prayers to move one of those little marbles out of it's indentation.

A far cry from proper significant double-blind controlled investigation...

... but probably good enough for Randi's million!

I have faith in this experiment.
Sleepy

I don't. How the fuck, if it moves, does one attribute it to silly boy's God?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-10-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  A far cry from proper significant double-blind controlled investigation...

... but probably good enough for Randi's million!

I have faith in this experiment.
Sleepy

I don't. How the fuck, if it moves, does one attribute it to silly boy's God?

True, I lowered the bar quite a bit. But I'm betting the pope's prayers aren't going to budge it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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31-10-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 03:25 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  I don't. How the fuck, if it moves, does one attribute it to silly boy's God?

True, I lowered the bar quite a bit. But I'm betting the pope's prayers aren't going to budge it.

Yeah, but the pope isn't a True Christian™. So there's your problem.

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31-10-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  A far cry from proper significant double-blind controlled investigation...

... but probably good enough for Randi's million!

I have faith in this experiment.
Sleepy

I don't. How the fuck, if it moves, does one attribute it to silly boy's God?

Alas, we shall have to take TheInquisition's word for our preliminary results.

Perhaps in the vanishingly unlikely event that anything at all happens, we can look into expanding our study.

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31-10-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Argument I don't understand
(31-10-2014 03:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 03:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  I don't. How the fuck, if it moves, does one attribute it to silly boy's God?

Alas, we shall have to take TheInquisition's word for our preliminary results.

Perhaps in the vanishingly unlikely event that anything at all happens, we can look into expanding our study.

Say Earthquack. The quacks claim that God can make Earthquacks... Back to square Quack. You have to be on quack to believe it.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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