Argument for God
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03-04-2013, 12:14 AM
RE: Argument for God
Is it possible for a thing to not exist?

How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 12:16 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:14 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Is it possible for a thing to not exist?

How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al


For the ones who had a notion, a notion deep inside,
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive -- Badlands; Bruce Springsteen

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03-04-2013, 12:23 AM
RE: Argument for God
(02-04-2013 11:51 PM)Egor Wrote:  I have news for you. I have no idea where this is headed.

So, the next questions are, "What is something that exists? and Is it possible for a thing to not exist? Given that we now have the definition of a thing as any physical or imagined thing.

If I were to run a trial balance at this point, this is where we are:

* Would you agree that a thing either exists or doesn't?
* Yes.
* What is a thing that exists?
* Is it possible for a thing to not exist?

The bolded question is a contradiction. Things by definition exist. You are asking is it possible for something which exists to not exist? The question is nonsensical.

Insults From Thinkingatheists forgiven 149
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03-04-2013, 12:26 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:14 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Is it possible for a thing to not exist?

How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al

Those can be found in nature, modified by mans imagination mind you, but they are there.

Unicorns: Horse + narwhal
Dragons: Lizard + bat
God: man + delusion

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 12:31 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:14 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

Good point. A thing cannot not exist. Or it wouldn't be a thing. The only things that do not exist would be what Mom is suggesting below:

(03-04-2013 12:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al

It's apples and oranges. A physical dragon does not exist. But the concept of a dragon does exist.

So, an idea can exist, but it's an idea not a physical object. There is no such thing as a unicorn, but there is such thing as the concept of a unicorn.

So, are we in agreement that a thing must exist either as a concept or an object. And can we therefore agree that it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.
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03-04-2013, 12:32 AM
RE: Argument for God
(02-04-2013 02:09 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'd like to do this in the Socratic method. I think it works better. If you just lay out an argument, atheists just say, "Nope!" and stick their heads back in the sand. Doing it this way is better. Less intimidating. And if I'm asking the questions and you're giving the answers then you can't very well escape with "prove it" can you?

So, would you agree that a thing either exists or does not exist? Consider

Thats a loaded question. Things like thoughts and ideas do not exist physically, but exist through actions and the like, while concepts such seen in, lets use anime as an example, exist as concepts but not as reality, because the ideas behind such ridiculous action taken therein are impossible IE: Blasting a wave of Ki out of your hand, or replicating ones self many times over. You god is of this category, but just not as cool. He exists as a concept in the human imagination, but cannot be made real through our actions. In the end, Gods we just concepts created to explain natural events or control ignorant people in savage times.

I could imagine a world filled with magical ponies, but that doesn't mean it exists anywhere outside of my head, and to try to sell my magical world of ponies as real would be me just stroking my own Egor, eh ahem I mean Ego..... year that's what I meant.

but nice try with the trick question, good effort.
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03-04-2013, 12:33 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The bolded question is a contradiction. Things by definition exist. You are asking is it possible for something which exists to not exist? The question is nonsensical.

I agree, but I'd like to get an atheist buy-in on this. But you and I agree on this.
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03-04-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:31 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:14 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

Good point. A thing cannot not exist. Or it wouldn't be a thing. The only things that do not exist would be what Mom is suggesting below:

(03-04-2013 12:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al

It's apples and oranges. A physical dragon does not exist. But the concept of a dragon does exist.

So, an idea can exist, but it's an idea not a physical object. There is no such thing as a unicorn, but there is such thing as the concept of a unicorn.

So, are we in agreement that a thing must exist either as a concept or an object. And can we therefore agree that it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

Well, it wouldn't be a "thing" by definition if it doesn't exist... Can you please get the point...

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 12:36 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:32 AM)DerekS Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 02:09 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'd like to do this in the Socratic method. I think it works better. If you just lay out an argument, atheists just say, "Nope!" and stick their heads back in the sand. Doing it this way is better. Less intimidating. And if I'm asking the questions and you're giving the answers then you can't very well escape with "prove it" can you?

So, would you agree that a thing either exists or does not exist? Consider

Thats a loaded question. Things like thoughts and ideas do not exist physically, but exist through actions and the like, while concepts such seen in, lets use anime as an example, exist as concepts but not as reality, because the ideas behind such ridiculous action taken therein are impossible IE: Blasting a wave of Ki out of your hand, or replicating ones self many times over. You god is of this category, but just not as cool. He exists as a concept in the human imagination, but cannot be made real through our actions. In the end, Gods we just concepts created to explain natural events or control ignorant people in savage times.

I could imagine a world filled with magical ponies, but that doesn't mean it exists anywhere outside of my head, and to try to sell my magical world of ponies as real would be me just stroking my own Egor, eh ahem I mean Ego..... year that's what I meant.

but nice try with the trick question, good effort.

More background noise. Dodgy
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03-04-2013, 12:40 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:34 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Well, it wouldn't be a "thing" by definition if it doesn't exist... Can you please get the point...

Did I not treat you with respect? Sheez. Atheists. Dodgy

I'm going to take my time. A debate will last as long as it has to.



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