Argument for God
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03-04-2013, 12:33 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The bolded question is a contradiction. Things by definition exist. You are asking is it possible for something which exists to not exist? The question is nonsensical.

I agree, but I'd like to get an atheist buy-in on this. But you and I agree on this.
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03-04-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:31 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:14 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  How would you know if something doesn't exist? It wouldn't exist for you to even think about it not existing.

Good point. A thing cannot not exist. Or it wouldn't be a thing. The only things that do not exist would be what Mom is suggesting below:

(03-04-2013 12:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al

It's apples and oranges. A physical dragon does not exist. But the concept of a dragon does exist.

So, an idea can exist, but it's an idea not a physical object. There is no such thing as a unicorn, but there is such thing as the concept of a unicorn.

So, are we in agreement that a thing must exist either as a concept or an object. And can we therefore agree that it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

Well, it wouldn't be a "thing" by definition if it doesn't exist... Can you please get the point...

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 12:36 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:32 AM)DerekS Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 02:09 PM)Egor Wrote:  I'd like to do this in the Socratic method. I think it works better. If you just lay out an argument, atheists just say, "Nope!" and stick their heads back in the sand. Doing it this way is better. Less intimidating. And if I'm asking the questions and you're giving the answers then you can't very well escape with "prove it" can you?

So, would you agree that a thing either exists or does not exist? Consider

Thats a loaded question. Things like thoughts and ideas do not exist physically, but exist through actions and the like, while concepts such seen in, lets use anime as an example, exist as concepts but not as reality, because the ideas behind such ridiculous action taken therein are impossible IE: Blasting a wave of Ki out of your hand, or replicating ones self many times over. You god is of this category, but just not as cool. He exists as a concept in the human imagination, but cannot be made real through our actions. In the end, Gods we just concepts created to explain natural events or control ignorant people in savage times.

I could imagine a world filled with magical ponies, but that doesn't mean it exists anywhere outside of my head, and to try to sell my magical world of ponies as real would be me just stroking my own Egor, eh ahem I mean Ego..... year that's what I meant.

but nice try with the trick question, good effort.

More background noise. Dodgy
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03-04-2013, 12:40 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:34 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Well, it wouldn't be a "thing" by definition if it doesn't exist... Can you please get the point...

Did I not treat you with respect? Sheez. Atheists. Dodgy

I'm going to take my time. A debate will last as long as it has to.



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03-04-2013, 12:41 AM
 
RE: Argument for God
Anyone worth listening to object to this:

A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.
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03-04-2013, 12:44 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:40 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:34 AM)Thoughtful Nate Wrote:  Well, it wouldn't be a "thing" by definition if it doesn't exist... Can you please get the point...

Did I not treat you with respect? Sheez. Atheists. Dodgy

I'm going to take my time. A debate will last as long as it has to.




And what exactly is this debate about. None of your questions seams to hold any water for an argument for god.

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 12:48 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:31 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But there are things that don't exist that people think about. Unicorns, dragons, god...et al

It's apples and oranges. A physical dragon does not exist. But the concept of a dragon does exist.

So, an idea can exist, but it's an idea not a physical object. There is no such thing as a unicorn, but there is such thing as the concept of a unicorn.

So, are we in agreement that a thing must exist either as a concept or an object. And can we therefore agree that it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

Concepts or ideas can be twisted. Real tangible things that everyone can see, smell, touch, taste, hear...etc, can't really be changed. For example...a lion won't really be confused with a common house cat.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-04-2013, 12:54 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  Anyone worth listening to object to this:

A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

I don' t think atheist deny the concept of God.....when they say God doesn't exist they mean as an "object" God does not exist.
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03-04-2013, 12:57 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:54 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 12:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  Anyone worth listening to object to this:

A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

I don' t think atheist deny the concept of God.....when they say God doesn't exist they mean as an "object" God does not exist.

Exactly. Its like a hypothesis.

If God exists I hope he has a good excuse -Woody Allen
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03-04-2013, 04:38 AM
RE: Argument for God
(02-04-2013 11:44 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 03:13 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  OK, Egor, I'll play along.

I will loosely define "a thing" as anything I can think about. I'll loosely define "exists" as being demonstrably real so that I can examine it with my senses and I can demonstrate it to others and they will agree that it is real.

With those definitions, then yes, "a thing" either "exists" or does not.

Given your definitions, how could a “thing” not exist?

Easy.

I can think of a human with 12 functional arms. I can think of a 100' tall human. I can think of a robot bigger than Mount Everest made of ice cream and gumdrops. I can think of an invisible pink unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster. I can think of Yahweh.

All these are examples of what I can think about, making them "things" by my definition, but none of them exist.

Do I know for a fact that none of them exist? Nope. But there has never been any credible recorded evidence that any of them exist and all of them are unrealistic myths (at best) so until I find some real evidence to convince me about any of them, I'm quite satisfied to assume that none of them exist.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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