Argument for God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-04-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

I don't see why there would be a contradiction.
It becomes a concept once you talk about it, and by your definition, it "exists".

In this thought game the only "things" that do not "exist" are those things that do not or have not existed physically OR concepts that have not been thought of. An unknown problem occurs when you, as an individual, haven't thought of Mt. Everest being made of ice cream and gum drops but Aseptic Skeptic has. You don't know it exists as a concept but according to this definition it already does.

Take it further, you have a concept of a god. In your definition it exists. I have a concept of god not existing. Do they cancel each other out or do both "things" exist/not exist simultaneously?

The issue here is defining "exists" in a rational way like others have pointed out.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
03-04-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  Anyone worth listening to object to this:

A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.

I think enough here have showed that they do. Obviously, it isn't "a contradiction" to talk about non-existent things. So, what is your next question?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 07:17 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:41 AM)Egor Wrote:  Anyone worth listening to object to this:

A thing must exist either as a concept or an object. Therefore, it is a contradiction to talk about a "thing" that doesn't exist.
If a "thing" does not exist as a concept or physical object, no one would be talking about it to begin with.

Using the above example....
If no one has ever thought of Mt Everest being made of a pile of blueberries, I just did, so it now exists.
If no one every thought of that and no one ever mentions or comes up with that idea, it is never talked about so the contradiction doesn't exist either.

Mt Everest made of blueberries as a physical "thing" does not exist.
Mt Everest made of blueberries as a conceptual "thing" does exist.
No contradiction.

[Image: 21omssh.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 07:35 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 07:17 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Mt Everest made of blueberries as a conceptual "thing" does exist.

I prefer the ice cream and gumdrops concept better, UNthink your blueberry Mt. Everest immediately! Damn troublemaker...Dodgy

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 07:35 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 07:17 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Mt Everest made of blueberries as a conceptual "thing" does exist.

I prefer the ice cream and gumdrops concept better, UNthink your blueberry Mt. Everest immediately! Damn troublemaker...Dodgy
No! You can't unthink what's already been thunk.

But I'll compromise. How about it's made of ice cream with a pile of blueberries at its peak?

[Image: 21omssh.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 07:41 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 07:35 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I prefer the ice cream and gumdrops concept better, UNthink your blueberry Mt. Everest immediately! Damn troublemaker...Dodgy
No! You can't unthink what's already been thunk.

But I'll compromise. How about it's made of ice cream with a pile of blueberries at its peak?

Nice try infidel! This is exactly why atheists will never have the upper hand...we can't even agree on the concept of WTF Mt. Everest is made of...Big Grin

Fine, ice cream and blueberrys...BUT it has to be Cookies 'n Cream ice cream, I insist!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 08:20 AM
RE: Argument for God
Mt. Everest made of Cookies 'n Cream . . . . . yes. . . . . .YES, . . . there it is! What a delicious thing!

Anyway, I can't wait to see what the next question is........
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 08:25 AM
RE: Argument for God
Crap, Egor forgot to take his meds again and is back.

The binary qualification for a thing existing is flawed from the start. Are concepts/ideas/fiction things? That depends on what you are trying to accomplish with asking for a simple yes/no answer.

Ruling out concepts, a thing can't exist if their doing so falls outside the natural laws and limitations of the universe.

However, this thread is going nowhere at the speed of PJ's run the gauntlet embarrassment.

At the risk of being off-topic, Egor- When you talk to god have you ever asked him why he has chosen you and only you to be his new messenger? Have you tried to suggest to him that perhaps on a planet of multiple billions that maybe more than one messenger may be more efficient. Shit, maybe one per continent would be a vast improvement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes devilsadvoc8's post
03-04-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 08:05 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 07:41 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  No! You can't unthink what's already been thunk.

But I'll compromise. How about it's made of ice cream with a pile of blueberries at its peak?

Nice try infidel! This is exactly why atheists will never have the upper hand...we can't even agree on the concept of WTF Mt. Everest is made of...Big Grin

Fine, ice cream and blueberrys...BUT it has to be Cookies 'n Cream ice cream, I insist!

See how well that works? Dodgy

Arguing abstract concepts leads to abstraction. Besides, there ain't no "Mount Everest." All that exists beyond my environment is my Gwynnies. Big Grin

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 08:51 AM
RE: Argument for God
(03-04-2013 12:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 07:10 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  For the most part, no. There is a limited set of things for which we have confirmed either existence or non-existence, and for these things existence is strictly either/or. But for the unconfirmed items, which are multitude, I take the Schrodinger-Cat attitude. Their existence or non-existence is undefined and NOT an either/or state. This undefined state will continue until sufficient observation to confirm the state of their existence is made.

Really? So are you saying that only observed things exist?

I'm saying that only things that that have been directly or indirectly observed can be said to exist. (Similarly, we can observe non-existence if we do it right; I can observe that no apple exists in my hand at this moment, for example.)

Unobserved things (or hypothetical things, if that qualifier is needed to cut off quibbling about whether a thing is a thing if it doesn't exist) can be seen as in a state of existing and not-existing at the same time. To say that only observed things exist is to neglect half of this dual-state of unobserved things. But we can say that only observed things ONLY exist, and only things observed to be nonexistent are ONLY nonexistent.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: