Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
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02-10-2015, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2015 08:16 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 07:57 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Just out of curiosity let me ask you Tomasia, if a document was ever found that mentioned a yeshua ben yosef that was crucified and rose from the dead that could be reliably dated to a time prior to when a historical yeshua was supposed to live, would that change your mind about the historical yeshua?

Probably not. It might raise some questions, but wouldn't cast too much doubt on historicity. When you have accounts of folks meeting Jesus's brother James, and Josephus writing of James' death, referring to him as the brother Jesus, it becomes pretty hard to deny a historical Jesus. Not to mention questions of how a non-existent messiah belief, could be reconciled with Jewish messianic expectations at the time would also be difficult.

The Gospels, the NT writings put a great deal of effort to interpret their failure of messiah to be the true one, attempting to reconcile discrepancies of his birth, and unexpected death, etc... Stretching a variety of OT verses to make the case, all reeking of desperation. Not something you'd have to if these elements were fabricated. If you were going to create a non-existent messianic figure, it would have been one a lot more compelling than Jesus.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2015, 08:18 AM
Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
When you have a person writing secondhand accounts of a person decades after they supposedly lived, these aren't "secular histories" they are stories with no evidence to corroborate them. At best, they're circumstantial. Your Jesus is no better than a rumor.

Still going to peddle the lie you're here to "learn" and not preach theistic bull? Drinking Beverage

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02-10-2015, 08:21 AM
Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
Facts will really fuck up faith. Unless you ignore it and special plead the facts away as theists are want to do. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-10-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When you have a person writing secondhand accounts of a person decades after they supposedly lived, these aren't "secular histories" they are stories with no evidence to corroborate them. At best, they're circumstantial. Your Jesus is no better than a rumor.

Still going to peddle the lie you're here to "learn" and not preach theistic bull? Drinking Beverage

A secular historical explanations, such as those presented by folks like Bart Ehrman.

The Gospels, the NT writings are not secular in any way.

Jesus's existence is well supported historical fact. To believe otherwise, puts you in the camp of creationist, and every other conspiracy theorist dope.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2015, 08:26 AM
Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 08:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When you have a person writing secondhand accounts of a person decades after they supposedly lived, these aren't "secular histories" they are stories with no evidence to corroborate them. At best, they're circumstantial. Your Jesus is no better than a rumor.

Still going to peddle the lie you're here to "learn" and not preach theistic bull? Drinking Beverage

A secular historical explanations, such as those presented by folks like Bart Ehrman.

The Gospels, the NT writings are not secular in any way.

Jesus's existence is well supported historical fact. To believe otherwise, puts you in the camp of creationist, and every other conspiracy theorist dope.

Yes, by wanting actual evidence and not buying into the special pleading arguments for circumstantial evidence proving existence, I'm the irrational one behaving like a creationist. /sarcasmfont

If you want to preach Christian bullshit and want othesr to pat you on the back and believe it on faith, you should try somewhere other than an atheist site, you dishonest twit. Drinking Beverage

Also, if a guy named Harry Potter lived around the same time as the supposed accounts of the Rowling series, does that make them likely or plausible or realistic in any way? No, not in the least bit.

But it would for Jesus and the gospels? Yeah, right Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-10-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:21 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Facts will really fuck up faith. Unless you ignore it and special plead the facts away as theists are want to do. Drinking Beverage

No, ignorance just embarrasses you. You think you can just brush a variety of facts under the rug, claiming we can't factor those things in here.

You're such a spineless coward, that you're not even trying to support a non-historicist view, but think that historians and everyone else should avoid claiming one way or other. You're only defense, and a weak one of course, is a claim that certain things should be labeled as inadmissible for support of explanations of historicity, or ahistoricity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2015, 08:35 AM
Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 08:21 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Facts will really fuck up faith. Unless you ignore it and special plead the facts away as theists are want to do. Drinking Beverage

No, ignorance just embarrasses you. You think you can just brush a variety of facts under the rug, claiming we can't factor those things in here.

You're such a spineless coward, that you're not even trying to support a non-historicist view, but think that historians and everyone else should avoid claiming one way or other. You're only defense, and a weak one of course, is a claim that certain things should be labeled as inadmissible for support of explanations of historicity, or ahistoricity.

Ignorance embarrasses me? What ignorance exactly? That there is no evidence of a Jesus nor any writings to corroborate his existence while he supposedly was alive? Wait, that's your ignorance to special plead those facts away.

A spineless coward? How exactly am I a "spineless coward?" Because I disagree with your ignorant theistic bullshit? Because I make the claim that there exists no evidence of a mythical or historical Jesus and that a guy named "Yeshua" (translating to Joseph) living in the years 0-30CE don't corroborate any biblical or NT claims?

Preach somewhere you dishonest fuckwit.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-10-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, if a guy named Harry Potter lived around the same time as the supposed accounts of the Rowling series, does that make them likely or plausible or realistic in any way? No, not in the least bit.

But it would for Jesus and the gospels? Yeah, right Drinking Beverage

You don't even seem to know what your point here is.

Rowling didn't use an actual guy named Harry Potter who lived in nearby, using elements of his life and history, and teaching, as the basis and template of her Harry Potter character. So we'd be correct to say that Harry Potter was an entirely fictional character, not based on any historical person with that name.

If you want to claim the same in regards to Jesus, then you'd have a shit load of explaining to do, but this doesn't seem like the position you actually want to take. Let me guess your position, is a lack of belief one way or the other?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2015, 08:37 AM
Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, if a guy named Harry Potter lived around the same time as the supposed accounts of the Rowling series, does that make them likely or plausible or realistic in any way? No, not in the least bit.

But it would for Jesus and the gospels? Yeah, right Drinking Beverage

You don't even seem to know what your point here is.

Rowling didn't use an actual guy named Harry Potter who lived in nearby, using elements of his life and history, and teaching, as the basis and template of her Harry Potter character. So we'd be correct to say that Harry Potter was an entirely fictional character, not based on any historical person with that name.

If you want to claim the same in regards to Jesus, than you'd have a shit load of explaining to do, but this doesn't seem like the position you actually want to take. Let me guess your position, is a lack of belief one way or other?

The stories written about Christopher Columbus must be true then since a guy by that name they are based on was real? He really convinced Queen Isabella to let him prove the earth was round by sailing west to India and was the first westerner to discover the Americas?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-10-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Argument from Ignorance vs. Argument from Silence
(02-10-2015 08:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Preach somewhere you dishonest fuckwit.

Get over it you son of bitch, as much as you desire otherwise, you're stuck with me, just as much as I'm stuck with you here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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