Argument from personal revelation
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30-08-2017, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2017 12:33 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 12:07 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 12:46 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The existence of the God of a mystic is tautological as I see it,
Tautological how?

God is the universe
God is the existence
God is the self
God is the consciousness
...

The existence of these Gods seem tautological to me. One can dismiss these concepts as a God, but mystics commonly identify God with such notions.
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30-08-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 12:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(30-08-2017 12:07 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Tautological how?

God is the universe
God is the existence
God is the self
God is the consciousness
...

The existence of these Gods seem tautological to me. One can dismiss these concepts as a God, but mystics commonly identify God with such notions.

Perhaps you're looking for a different word. That doesn't look like a tautology, where something is constructed in such a way that it has to be true. It'd be stuff like:
  • The blue car is blue.
  • An omnipotent god is all-powerful.
  • The mother is older than her daughter.
Those are tautologies. I'm not seeing that in your examples. Perhaps you're referencing begging the question? Like "God is the universe, the universe exists, ergo God exists", or something?
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30-08-2017, 01:07 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2017 01:11 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 12:46 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Perhaps you're looking for a different word. That doesn't look like a tautology, where something is constructed in such a way that it has to be true. It'd be stuff like:
  • The blue car is blue.
  • An omnipotent god is all-powerful.
  • The mother is older than her daughter.
Those are tautologies. I'm not seeing that in your examples. Perhaps you're referencing begging the question? Like "God is the universe, the universe exists, ergo God exists", or something?
1. God := universe
2. Universe := totality of being
3. "totality of being exists" is tautological
=> 4. "God exists" is tautological

1 and 2 are definitions, they are not claims that need justification.

To clarify my point further,
X := 2
"X is prime" is tautological.

X=2 is merely a definition, it's not a claim that needs justification. Similarly, "God is the existence/self/universe" is merely a definition, not a claim. One can dismiss the definition of course, but if one accepts the definition, the existence of that God will be tautological, I think.
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30-08-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(28-08-2017 05:19 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  You clearly weren't trying to find God then.

You don't have a clue. Back when I was a theist, I grew up in a regular theist family going to church once per week, etc. But then I reached a point where I really took an interest in religion. I started going to church daily (who does that anymore?), reading up on religion in most of my spare time, and dedicating about 1/2 hour/day to praying outside church. Religion became my life and I was giving serious thought to becoming a priest, never getting married, and dedicating my life to God and an afterlife. After all, if you truly believe, then spending time on this life is pointless (at least in Christianity). All I wanted was to find and serve God so you couldn't be more wrong.

So how did I become an atheist? The more I studied religion, the less made sense. That and a couple of circumstances in my life eventually opened my eyes. And, when it did and my faith was vanishing involuntarily, I prayed to God to help me get it back! I was terrified about losing it and offending God! I didn't CHOOSE to become an atheist. But I'm quite confident now that it's correct and I'm glad reality became more obvious.

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30-08-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 01:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 05:19 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  You clearly weren't trying to find God then.

You don't have a clue. Back when I was a theist, I grew up in a regular theist family going to church once per week, etc. But then I reached a point where I really took an interest in religion. I started going to church daily (who does that anymore?), reading up on religion in most of my spare time, and dedicating about 1/2 hour/day to praying outside church. Religion became my life and I was giving serious thought to becoming a priest, never getting married, and dedicating my life to God and an afterlife. After all, if you truly believe, then spending time on this life is pointless (at least in Christianity). All I wanted was to find and serve God so you couldn't be more wrong.

So how did I become an atheist? The more I studied religion, the less made sense. That and a couple of circumstances in my life eventually opened my eyes. And, when it did and my faith was vanishing involuntarily, I prayed to God to help me get it back! I was terrified about losing it and offending God! I didn't CHOOSE to become an atheist. But I'm quite confident now that it's correct and I'm glad reality became more obvious.
My guess is Angra won't care about any of this. Unfortunately his own Bible promotes the circular reasoning that Real Christians never stop being Christians, and therefore any Christian that stops being a Christian never was one in the first place.

I've encountered it a zillion times. In fact, 99.999% of the time this is what happens:

1) If they didn't know you personally when you were a Christian, you were Never One Of Them.

2) If they DID know you personally, and saw your reputation and involvement firsthand, then they are at first confused and then convince themselves that it's a "misunderstanding" or you're "just going through a phase" and you'll come around eventually. I have family and friends from my salad days that are still thinking this after 25 years!

For what it's worth, I believe you. No reason not to. Sounds like my own story in fact. Logically, if I wanted to know of your love and devotion for Jesus, I'd ask you, and guess what, you've told me the story, so ... you were a Christian, and now you're not. How 'bout that!
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30-08-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 07:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  My guess is Angra won't care about any of this. Unfortunately his own Bible promotes the circular reasoning that Real Christians never stop being Christians, and therefore any Christian that stops being a Christian never was one in the first place.

I've encountered it a zillion times. In fact, 99.999% of the time this is what happens:

1) If they didn't know you personally when you were a Christian, you were Never One Of Them.

2) If they DID know you personally, and saw your reputation and involvement firsthand, then they are at first confused and then convince themselves that it's a "misunderstanding" or you're "just going through a phase" and you'll come around eventually. I have family and friends from my salad days that are still thinking this after 25 years!

For what it's worth, I believe you. No reason not to. Sounds like my own story in fact. Logically, if I wanted to know of your love and devotion for Jesus, I'd ask you, and guess what, you've told me the story, so ... you were a Christian, and now you're not. How 'bout that!
Agreed. I doubt he'll care and I was probably just like that once. When you have faith, you believe it's because you opened your heart to God. So those who don't have faith must not have opened their heart. It's classic lack of familiarity with a group of people and filling in the blanks from one's own personal world view. I remember Greta Christina saying in her book, Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless, that one of the greatest things atheists can do, is simply to come out as atheists. That makes sense to me because it allows people to see how atheists really are instead of them filling in those blanks with inaccuracies.

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31-08-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 01:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  You don't have a clue. Back when I was a theist, I grew up in a regular theist family going to church once per week, etc. But then I reached a point where I really took an interest in religion. I started going to church daily (who does that anymore?), reading up on religion in most of my spare time, and dedicating about 1/2 hour/day to praying outside church. Religion became my life and I was giving serious thought to becoming a priest, never getting married, and dedicating my life to God and an afterlife. After all, if you truly believe, then spending time on this life is pointless (at least in Christianity). All I wanted was to find and serve God so you couldn't be more wrong.

So how did I become an atheist? The more I studied religion, the less made sense. That and a couple of circumstances in my life eventually opened my eyes. And, when it did and my faith was vanishing involuntarily, I prayed to God to help me get it back! I was terrified about losing it and offending God! I didn't CHOOSE to become an atheist. But I'm quite confident now that it's correct and I'm glad reality became more obvious.

The way I understand it, you reached a point where you were quite absorbed to your notion of God, after studying religion more, you figured out that they are nonsensical. My question is, why didn't you trust your personal notion of God which was working for you and ignore those religious sources? I mean maybe those religious sources were wrong, but your personal experience was true. What prevented you to believe this?

I'd appreciate your answer.
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31-08-2017, 02:28 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 12:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(30-08-2017 12:07 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Tautological how?

God is the universe
God is the existence
God is the self
God is the consciousness
...

The existence of these Gods seem tautological to me. One can dismiss these concepts as a God, but mystics commonly identify God with such notions.

All of those statements are untrue. God is way beyond all of that.
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31-08-2017, 03:26 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 02:28 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(30-08-2017 12:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  God is the universe
God is the existence
God is the self
God is the consciousness
...

The existence of these Gods seem tautological to me. One can dismiss these concepts as a God, but mystics commonly identify God with such notions.

All of those statements are untrue. God is way beyond all of that.

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31-08-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 03:26 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(31-08-2017 02:28 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  All of those statements are untrue. God is way beyond all of that.

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I know you have an evidence fetish, but you're not getting your fix here.
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