Argument from personal revelation
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31-08-2017, 08:28 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 07:38 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  I guaran-fucking-tee that the only opinions you'll agree with, are mainstream ones with dubious credentials (meaning they could've fabricated the "proof/evidence" out of thin air), and you'd still probably believe it, right? Because it's trendy?

Proof and evidence really only count for anything if they're repeatable. Yes, anything can be faked, but if someone goes to double-check the claim, they should be able to repeat it. It's why peer review exists. It's an important part of the scientific method for making sure claims aren't baseless.

So, if a claim can't be double-checked, then it should be rejected. If it's double-checked and proven false, it should be rejected. But I'm sure none of that is going to stop you from believing baseless claims and regurgitating them all over this forum like they're useful for anything.

Fuck off, you smug little twat.
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31-08-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 02:11 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The way I understand it, you reached a point where you were quite absorbed to your notion of God, after studying religion more, you figured out that they are nonsensical. My question is, why didn't you trust your personal notion of God which was working for you and ignore those religious sources? I mean maybe those religious sources were wrong, but your personal experience was true. What prevented you to believe this?

I'd appreciate your answer.
The short answer is the only "personal experience" I had was the belief. When so many facts and ideas opposed that belief, the belief simply vanished. I had no choice about it.

For the longer answer, I could literally write a book so I'll just give a few examples:

1. The whole idea that Adam and Eve could sin and then it damned all of humanity, not just those two, is ridiculous and unjust.
a. Related to that, the idea that God could leave them in a situation where they didn't yet know right from wrong, but then chastise them for doing "wrong". And what was that wrong? Disobeying God by eating an apple. And for that all humans got disease, natural disasters, birth defects, disabilities, etc. And all this from a perfect, all-loving God. Uh-huh... Drinking Beverage That same God set them up right next to the Tree of Knowledge with a very tempting talking (*ahem*) snake who most certainly was going to talk them into their "disobedience". So this all-knowing God knew exactly what they would do, set them up anyway, and then blamed them for it.

2. The whole idea that Joe can do evil, but Bob can die and somehow make up for Joe's evil. What I really mean by that, but wanted to make it obvious first, is the idea that Jesus dying somehow saves us from original sin when Jesus had nothing to do with committing the original sin and Adam and Eve had nothing to do with making up for their own "sin". How does this dying change anything such that it re-opens the gates to heaven? (rhetorical)

3. The excuse of free will. When asked why God allows evil to exist, many believers reflexively reply "free will" as though that's a good thing. Yet, free will with evil isn't actually better than free will to choose only among non-evil things. Plus, I assume people still have free will in heaven so what's to stop evil from happening there? Logically nothing. So either God will remove free will or something is wrong with the idea that there is no evil in heaven. And if there is really some mechanism - the most common one I've heard is people won't want to choose to do evil - the same could be applied right here on Earth, but it isn't.

4. In college, I made several friends who happened to be gay. They are some of the best and most moral people I have ever met. The whole idea that God would condemn them just for being gay - or even would simply call homosexuality a sin - is ridiculous. God supposedly creates everything. Homosexuality is biological at least much if not all of the time. God created homosexuality then, but called it a sin. That makes no sense.

Those types of things, brought in the doubts which allowed me to examine my beliefs more open-mindedly and more honestly. Then I was able to see other things - like the lack of evidence that any god exists (and by "lack" I mean "zero"), the evidence against the authenticity of the Bible, the atrocities and contradictions in the Bible, the strong evidence suggesting that Jesus might not even have existed as a person let alone a god, and the evil that exists in the whole idea of an egocentric god who wants so much sacrifice and pain, who supposedly allows the devil to influence people into going to hell, and who created and sends people to an eternity of fiery torture.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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31-08-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 07:38 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  I guaran-fucking-tee that the only opinions you'll agree with, are mainstream ones with dubious credentials (meaning they could've fabricated the "proof/evidence" out of thin air), and you'd still probably believe it, right? Because it's trendy?

What evidence are you even talking about? You have been refusing to provide any...

So I'm going to have to guess that you mean the evidence against gods existing? No one has proof that no god exists anywhere... that is impossible. But there is plenty of evidence that earthly religions are fabricated lies and a statement like yours tells me you are completely unaware of that evidence... yet, you'll speak strongly against it. And that tells me about your intellectual dishonesty. Dodgy

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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31-08-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 08:02 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  It's all just theory. Nothing solid. Nothing solid at all. Stop treating theories and hypotheses as if they are indisputable fact, I can't even tell you how stupid that is.
Then try letting go of your favorite glass or mug while it's 5 feet above the floor. Gravity is just a theory after all. Apparently it's stupid to believe that it will break.

(31-08-2017 08:02 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Humans are so ridiculously primitive, they really will believe anything.
If you could only see the irony in that statement... Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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31-08-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:17 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(31-08-2017 07:38 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  I guaran-fucking-tee that the only opinions you'll agree with, are mainstream ones with dubious credentials (meaning they could've fabricated the "proof/evidence" out of thin air), and you'd still probably believe it, right? Because it's trendy?

What evidence are you even talking about? You have been refusing to provide any...

So I'm going to have to guess that you mean the evidence against gods existing? No one has proof that no god exists anywhere... that is impossible. But there is plenty of evidence that earthly religions are fabricated lies and a statement like yours tells me you are completely unaware of that evidence... yet, you'll speak strongly against it. And that tells me about your intellectual dishonesty. Dodgy

You don't have proof/evidence that a dog loves you, or that you love the dog. Do you really need proof/evidence for that sort of thing?
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31-08-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:23 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(31-08-2017 10:17 AM)Impulse Wrote:  What evidence are you even talking about? You have been refusing to provide any...

So I'm going to have to guess that you mean the evidence against gods existing? No one has proof that no god exists anywhere... that is impossible. But there is plenty of evidence that earthly religions are fabricated lies and a statement like yours tells me you are completely unaware of that evidence... yet, you'll speak strongly against it. And that tells me about your intellectual dishonesty. Dodgy

You don't have proof/evidence that a dog loves you, or that you love the dog. Do you really need proof/evidence for that sort of thing?
There is evidence that the dog actually exists which is a might bit further than you can get.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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31-08-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(31-08-2017 10:23 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  You don't have proof/evidence that a dog loves you, or that you love the dog. Do you really need proof/evidence for that sort of thing?
There is evidence that the dog actually exists which is a might bit further than you can get.

A dog is just a belief. Everything is just a belief. Beliefs create reality.
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31-08-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:32 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(31-08-2017 10:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  There is evidence that the dog actually exists which is a might bit further than you can get.

A dog is just a belief. Everything is just a belief. Beliefs create reality.

Rolleyes

So you ARE stupid?

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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31-08-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:23 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  You don't have proof/evidence that a dog loves you, or that you love the dog. Do you really need proof/evidence for that sort of thing?

Yeah, you addressed nothing I said.

Besides that, you really need to expand your depth of thought.

Do I have proof a dog loves me? No.
Evidence? Sure: Tail wagging, lying back for a belly rub from me, greeting me at the door, getting all excited when I put food in the dish, approaching me for attention, etc. Could each be signs of other things besides love? Yes, that's why they aren't proof, but collectively they are evidence.

Why would I need proof or evidence that I love the dog though? Unless you're trying to get all philosophical in which case you will need to define love. Did you really mean to open that can of worms? Consider

Now that I answered your question, how about answering mine. What evidence were you talking about?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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31-08-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(31-08-2017 10:32 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  A dog is just a belief. Everything is just a belief. Beliefs create reality.

You must be confusing dog with god. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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