Argument from personal revelation
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28-08-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(21-08-2017 07:13 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  I just wanted to touch on this quickly, simply because this seems to be the last hill that theists will die on, as they claim their religion is true.

"God told me," they say. "God revealed himself to me."

No... no he didn't. Understand what you're implying if you say that God talked to you and not me. Why would he do that? Does he care more about your salvation than mine?

I know this is simplistic to refute, but when a theist is pressed for evidence, this seems to be one of the 'evidences' they fall back on, once they realize they don't have any. So I just want to simply ask, why does God reveal himself to you and not me? If he wants everyone to come to 'knowledge of the truth,' why is he highly selective about whom he reveals that truth to? I read the Bible and prayed for years. Why does he stick his fingers in his ears for me and not you?

Sorry this just seems to be the next argument I've heard recently, after the argument from math, and the argument from morality. I figure they're all worth examining.

Regards.


Yep.

If a Damascus Road experience is good enough for Saul, why not us atheists?

I sincerely searched for god for years, yet nothing.

Either we have a god that does not exist.

Or we have one that sets up a system, where even a modicum use of critical thinking leads one to the conclusion that there is not enough evidence and/or valid and sound logic to warrant belief he exists. And that god rewards gullibility.
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29-08-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(28-08-2017 01:41 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Here's the problem I ran into. I certainly learned to interpret everything as if God existed, but I had no actual proof he did.
What was the concept of this God that you managed to consider it as real? and what sort of proof you thought you'd need? Something like a scientific evidence, a personal revelation or what?

The existence of the God of a mystic is tautological as I see it, it's interesting for me how you ran into problems after two decades of looking into mysticism. I'm asking to know more about it.
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29-08-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(29-08-2017 12:46 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 01:41 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Here's the problem I ran into. I certainly learned to interpret everything as if God existed, but I had no actual proof he did.
What was the concept of this God that you managed to consider it as real? and what sort of proof you thought you'd need? Something like a scientific evidence, a personal revelation or what?

The existence of the God of a mystic is tautological as I see it, it's interesting for me how you ran into problems after two decades of looking into mysticism. I'm asking to know more about it.

The concept of God which made the most sense to me, and which I pursued for the longest, was the pantheistic God concept. What I thought could prove it was mind-reading, miracles and such like, since they would show the unity of minds and the mind-dependence of the apparently material world. I held out hope for such confirmations for far too long.

For your information, I was studying Idries Shah's version of Sufism, since it made the most sense to me for all those years (I'm now sorry to say). You can, of course, consider my experiences irrelevant if you like, since I stopped being even a superficial Christian when I was still a teenager.
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29-08-2017, 09:35 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(29-08-2017 12:53 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  The concept of God which made the most sense to me, and which I pursued for the longest, was the pantheistic God concept. What I thought could prove it was mind-reading, miracles and such like, since they would show the unity of minds and the mind-dependence of the apparently material world. I held out hope for such confirmations for far too long.

For your information, I was studying Idries Shah's version of Sufism, since it made the most sense to me for all those years (I'm now sorry to say). You can, of course, consider my experiences irrelevant if you like, since I stopped being even a superficial Christian when I was still a teenager.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I assume you abandoned any sort of religious practice when you were a teenager, right? I think in Sufism, the practice of dhikr is very important, did you practice anything like dhikr or any other form of devotion during those two decades?
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30-08-2017, 03:55 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2017 04:38 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(29-08-2017 09:35 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Thanks for sharing your experience. I assume you abandoned any sort of religious practice when you were a teenager, right? I think in Sufism, the practice of dhikr is very important, did you practice anything like dhikr or any other form of devotion during those two decades?

I dropped Christian religious practices when I was a teenager. I couldn't buy into the "Jesus is the son of God" idea, which I thought was idolatry.

I tried Muslim practices for seven years as an adult before I stopped. In Shah's version of Sufism, specific exercises like dhikr are prescribed, so I mainly studied recommended reading otherwise. See Shah's A Perfumed Scorpion for example. I was certainly familiar with the range of Sufi practices and the names of God from my reading.

I don't want to go any further into the details because it's embarrassing to me. I abandoned mysticism 17 years ago now. The point is that some atheists tried very hard and still failed to make sense of the God hypothesis.
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30-08-2017, 04:49 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 03:55 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  The point is that some atheists tried very hard and still failed to make sense of the God hypothesis.

Well said.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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30-08-2017, 06:25 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 03:55 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I dropped Christian religious practices when I was a teenager. I couldn't buy into the "Jesus is the son of God" idea, which I thought was idolatry.

I tried Muslim practices for seven years as an adult before I stopped. In Shah's version of Sufism, specific exercises like dhikr are prescribed, so I mainly studied recommended reading otherwise. See Shah's A Perfumed Scorpion for example. I was certainly familiar with the range of Sufi practices and the names of God from my reading.

I don't want to go any further into the details because it's embarrassing to me. I abandoned mysticism 17 years ago now. The point is that some atheists tried very hard and still failed to make sense of the God hypothesis.
Thanks for sharing, that was quite interesting for me as someone who is taking a similar path, and your story gave me a better perception of what "Atheist" can denote.
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30-08-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(28-08-2017 05:19 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 04:56 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Many atheists are former believers who did their best to sincerely "reach out" to connect with the god that they were certain was there. Your statement is simply ignorant. Atheists, as a rule, don't believe because there is no rational reason to believe, not because of what they do or do not want to believe.

You clearly weren't trying to find God then.

I used to be nice but....fuck off.

I was in your world for over 30 years, and I now see the pompous, arrogant, passive aggressive bullshit tactics used and I now realize how utterly pathetic they are. Because in the end, they are just your own security blankets you create to rationalize in your head why there are people that don't believe like you.

"You just want to sin", "You're just mad at God", "You just don't want to believe", "You weren't REALLY a believer".....again....fuck off.
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30-08-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(30-08-2017 08:27 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  "You just want to sin"

Actually this one's accurate. Choose to follow some bronze age ideas about morality including such delightful ideas as whacking off the end of one's weiner and killing gay people or... have a good time... decisions decisions...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Argument from personal revelation
(29-08-2017 12:46 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The existence of the God of a mystic is tautological as I see it,

Tautological how?
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