Argument of the week
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13-11-2010, 01:35 PM
 
Argument of the week
I just had a bit of an argument with my friend last night.

He said "I'm not an atheist." and I said "but if you don't believe that man or the universe were created by a higher power, you're an atheist."
He said "But I've an open mind about it. I don't want to ignore that there COULD be something. I have an open mind. " I said, "Neither do I, I don't but I'm still an atheist. Would you call yourself agnostic then?"
He shook his head. I said "You think I'd say I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOU! if god walked up right now and showed himself? Of course I wouldn't." He smiled. "Nobody but a fool would walk to the ocean, look out over the waves and say "This ocean doesn't exist!" He looked up and to the right, cocking his brow a bit. I continued. "So, just because you believe something now doesn't cement you into something. When the flying spaghetti monster shows up, I'm in!"

We went into the store and bought wine. He smiled. I wonder if he'll start calling himself atheist now. Smile
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13-11-2010, 02:42 PM
 
RE: Argument of the week
(13-11-2010 01:35 PM)steph Wrote:  I just had a bit of an argument with my friend last night.

He said "I'm not an atheist." and I said "but if you don't believe that man or the universe were created by a higher power, you're an atheist."
He said "But I've an open mind about it. I don't want to ignore that there COULD be something. I have an open mind. " I said, "Neither do I, I don't but I'm still an atheist. Would you call yourself agnostic then?"
He shook his head. I said "You think I'd say I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOU! if god walked up right now and showed himself? Of course I wouldn't." He smiled. "Nobody but a fool would walk to the ocean, look out over the waves and say "This ocean doesn't exist!" He looked up and to the right, cocking his brow a bit. I continued. "So, just because you believe something now doesn't cement you into something. When the flying spaghetti monster shows up, I'm in!"

We went into the store and bought wine. He smiled. I wonder if he'll start calling himself atheist now. Smile

Maybe your friend doesn't know the full definition of Agnostic. You might share that with him and in the meantime, it sounds like he is one none the less.
Not believing in something specific but believing something could exist as creator behind all that is, is certainly not atheist. Smile Good luck.
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13-11-2010, 07:27 PM
RE: Argument of the week
If god showed up and proved himself to me I would know s/he/it existed. Until such a time I am a strong atheist. 5,000 plus years of unsubstantiated claims is enough for me to know that god is a man-made construct. I am willing to admit I am wrong, but only in the presence of verifiable proof.
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14-11-2010, 02:47 PM
RE: Argument of the week
Actually, "Not believing in something specific but believing something could exist as creator behind all that is" is compatible with atheism. Believing something could exist is different from believing that something does exist. I believe that a parallel universe where everything is the exact same as ours but the colors are reversed is possible, but I don't have a distinct belief that such a universe exists. If one who does distinctly believe it is a coloropposist, then I am an a-coloropposist even though I believe it's possible.
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14-11-2010, 05:52 PM
RE: Argument of the week
If God showed up and proved himself to me I would know s/he/it didn't exist. Until such time I am a strong rational theist. 5,000 plus years of unrefuted claims is enough for me to know that God is a coherent construct. I am willing to admit I'm wrong, but only in the presence of verifiable proof.
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14-11-2010, 07:02 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(14-11-2010 05:52 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  5,000 plus years of unrefuted claims is enough for me to know that God is a coherent construct.

But have the claims been proven? That's what should be the basis of your belief: not what has been proven wrong, but what has been proven right.

And what unrefuted claims are you talking about?

Quote:I am willing to admit I'm wrong, but only in the presence of verifiable proof.

Have you heard of the burden of proof fallacy?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-11-2010, 11:50 AM
RE: Argument of the week
The claims have been proven right to millions of believers, and can be proven to every person that wants to know now. That's of no interest to the unbeliever of course, who would seek to refute biblical claims, albeit unsuccessfully.

I have indeed heard of the BOP. Do you have proof that I'm wrong as I asked? It works both ways you know (hence why I said it).
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15-11-2010, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2010 03:20 PM by gamutman.)
RE: Argument of the week
Fr0d0, in your first post you claim that the God you believe in has been supported by 5000 years of unrefuted claims. This is patently untrue. Every claim in the bible which supports God's existence, every extra-biblical claim that I am aware of as well, has been refuted.

In fact, the bible begins with the Genesis story, and that story has been thoroughly lain to waste by the facts. Evolution, cosmic background radiation, gene mapping, etc all disprove the various parts of this fiction. The bible then gives a chronological accounting from Adam, through Seth to Noah. However, this cannot be true either since the first story is false. The Noah story then goes on to describe a flood which we know from geological and other scientific evidence never happened. From here we move on to several other impossible stories, specifically the Moses account. This too is a falsehood as the Israelites were never enslaved in Egypt and there is no evidence of Moses having ever existed in the Egyptian royal household. They kept very good records. We even know about the Scorpion King and the cyclical changing of the primary deities they worshiped despite the fact that they tried to expunge this evidence.

The Moses story also includes numerous other accounts for which there is zero extra-biblical evidence which should exist if the tales were true. For example, the parting of the Red Sea, the slaughter of the first born, the slave revolt, the plague of locusts and frogs etc. The lack of these accounts by Egyptian scribes is very strong evidence that they never happened.

Besides, we're still burdened with the fact that all of these tales follow a genealogical path that has it's root in a man (Adam) who never existed. From here we get more unsubstantiated claims which are proof of nothing, such as the burning bush, the arc of the covenant laying waste to the enemies of Israel, the slaughter of the Canaanites, etc. We next move on in history to more unsubstantiated claims of divine intervention and a continuation of that genealogical line that had a fictitious beginning. Finally, we end up with David who supposedly slays a giant with a stone thrown from a sling, only there is no verifiable archeological evidence that such a race ever existed. Where are the ruins of their cities? Where are the skeletal remains?

After David we go several generations to the supposed birth of the son of God. This also never happened. First, the bible offers 2 contradictory accounts of his lineage back to David. Second, it relies on the fulfillment of prophesies that his birth does not fulfill unless you accept the two contradictory stories of his birth as being both true. Additionally one of the stories is clearly not true since there was no census during the time of Augustus in which all males were ordered to return to the place of their birth to be counted. We know this for two reasons. First, because there is no record, and a census with no record is - well - it's not a census. Second, because if there had been a census, it would not involve having people move from where they are because that would be an idiotic logistical impossibility and pointless to boot.

From this point we move on to even more made up crap that never happened. For example; carpenters as wedding guests do not have the clout to order servants to do anything. Carpenters who piss off the Jewish authorities by calling them on their own Jewish law-breaking are not going to be considered criminals by the Roman authorities and will certainly not be put to death for such. Also, the Romans did not have a tradition of releasing a Jewish criminal for a Passover celebration they didn't celebrate. Finally, the entire justification of Christ's claims is based in a lineage that flows back in time to an event that never happened, i.e. the Adam and Eve story.

There you go. Complete refutation of that 5000 year old tradition. You can ignore it. You can refuse to accept the validity of it (although is assure you it is all iron clad). But it does exist and has existed for some time.
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15-11-2010, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2010 03:19 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Argument of the week
(15-11-2010 11:50 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The claims have been proven right to millions of believers, and can be proven to every person that wants to know now.
Ok so what are the claims? do you have proof? I'd also like citations from multiple sources.

(15-11-2010 11:50 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  That's of no interest to the unbeliever of course, who would seek to refute biblical claims

Actually we'd be quite interested to hear your amazing proof of the legitimacy of the bible's claims.
and do you expect us not to defend our position?

(15-11-2010 11:50 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  albeit unsuccessfully.

Bullshit, we have strong reason to believe that the holy scriptures were written from the perspective of "a friend of a friend told me this Big Grin" and cannot be taken as anything more than yee old'e gossip.

(15-11-2010 11:50 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  I have indeed heard of the BOP. Do you have proof that I'm wrong as I asked? It works both ways you know (hence why I said it).

are you seriously asking for evidence from a default position?
Atheist: I see no dragon...
Theist: PROVE YOU DON'T SEE IT!!!

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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15-11-2010, 03:22 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(15-11-2010 11:50 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The claims have been proven right to millions of believers, and can be proven to every person that wants to know now.

Well, that's the problem now, isn't it? The only people who believe that it's been proven are the people who are most subject to confirmation bias. You need actual evidence, not the argument ad populum.

Quote:That's of no interest to the unbeliever of course, who would seek to refute biblical claims, albeit unsuccessfully.

Entirely successfully, I think.

Quote:I have indeed heard of the BOP. Do you have proof that I'm wrong as I asked?

If you have heard of the burden of proof, then you should recognize why that question is fallacious.

Quote:It works both ways you know (hence why I said it).

Yes, it does work both ways. But the burden is uneven. My claim is simply that you are wrong. I reject your claim. To prove my case, I just need to disprove yours - and you haven't made one, so, until you do, the neutral claim (mine) is considered to have met the burden of proof.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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