Argument of the week
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16-11-2010, 05:49 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(16-11-2010 04:56 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  @ Unbeliever - that isn't the source - the link you posted today is the source.

What? What does this have to do with what I said?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-11-2010, 05:54 PM
RE: Argument of the week
ok so what is the message behind virgin birth?
or god collapsing someones house, killing their whole family and leaving the head of the house injured but alive to grieve his loss?
or the flood?
or Lots daughters raped?
or eating from a tree that gives you morality being a crime?

"You whistle a pretty tune there stranger, but its all hot air to me, lessin' you can back ur claims..."


tell me frodo what do these mean from your obviously superior religious mind?
and if you want to settle the whole lie and inconsistency thing that you and unbeliever have been arguing about than simply post EXACTLY what he lied about and give us an explanation of how it was a lie, if you've done that than simply copy and paste so we're all up to speed instead of saying "Its there, go look for it".

second gamutman has been raising good points against you and all you've done is say "no no you're ignorant"... talk about lala syndrome... just because you don't understand what hes saying doesn't mean its not valid. Hes asked you to explain what these things in the bible represent and what we can take as metaphor and what as reality.

Personally I don't think you're shock, shock isn't NEARLY intelligent enough to string together semi-coherent sentences as you are.
Yes give us an unrefuted claim.
I'll be lenient and not ask for citation.
just name it.

I'll give you an example of an unrefuted scientific theory.
the Miller-Urey experiment which proved the beginning steps of abiogenesis are possible on an early earth

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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16-11-2010, 06:25 PM
RE: Argument of the week
@ gamutman: all of them

@ Unbeliever: what you said also bore no relation to my question - I was bringing you back to it

@ UnderTheMicroscope: That's a very nice list that I'm sure you're not the least bit interested in hearing about. So I won't waste my time if you don't mind. Of course you are aware of the meanings, no one it that ignorant.

My issue with Unbeliever concerns his gross misunderstanding of a small post he just quoted ... and his baseless accusations based off that (not to mention insults even though his error is pointed out to him). I already said above we could discuss it - did you see him refuse and want to discuss something else just then??

Gamutman has been talking about something unrelated to what I've been talking about and I've pointed that out to him. You guys seem obsessed with hunting down easy prey. I wish you good sport with that I really do. If you're not interested in thinking about it seriously and rationally then perhaps you should avoid talking with me.
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16-11-2010, 06:52 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(16-11-2010 06:25 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  @ UnderTheMicroscope: That's a very nice list that I'm sure you're not the least bit interested in hearing about. So I won't waste my time if you don't mind. Of course you are aware of the meanings, no one it that ignorant.

actually I'd like to hear them Big Grin
Its not wasting your time, think of it as educating a heathen.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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16-11-2010, 07:36 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(16-11-2010 06:25 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  @ Unbeliever: what you said also bore no relation to my question - I was bringing you back to it

What question? Back to what? You appear to be confusing our conversation with another one entirely.

Quote:My issue with Unbeliever concerns his gross misunderstanding of a small post he just quoted ... and his baseless accusations based off that (not to mention insults even though his error is pointed out to him).

Seeing as you refuse to explain how I misunderstood it, and have insulted me repeatedly, I see no reason from treating you the same way. Once again, I ask you to give a single example of something that I have dodged or misinterpreted.

Quote:I already said above we could discuss it - did you see him refuse and want to discuss something else just then??

Refuse what? Change the subject to what? You are either out-and-out lying about me or you are getting the discussions in the various threads mixed up.

Quote:If you're not interested in thinking about it seriously and rationally then perhaps you should avoid talking with me.

We could say the same to you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-11-2010, 08:35 PM
RE: Argument of the week
Sorry to jump in late but I've been a bit busy (stupid job). Anyway.....

Fr0d0

Quote:The stories represented by some of those characters are fantastic.. but then it depends on your acceptance of supernatural influence. More important than the events are the message that they convey.

What are you saying here? Is the bible a book of metaphors from which to derive morality or is the bible the literal word of God or is the bible something else? What, in your opinion, does the bible actual represent in terms of God?

I think we all need a clear answer what I would have thought was a simple question before anyone can continue because, seriously, you are all over the place on just the basics of what you believe. In answering, please provide specific - not general but for each question a specific - answer to the following questions:

- did god create the earth and everything on it in 6 days and rest on the 7th?
- was Eve created from the rib of Adam?
- was there a Garden of Eden and were Adam and Eve cast from it for eating from the tree of knowledge?
- was there a Noah and a great flood?
- was Jesus Christ born of a virgin mother (meaning he was not conceived through sex, not that Mary was a virgin)?
- did he die on the cross, rise from the dead and ascend to heaven?

Please provide actual answers to this because I think we are all really struggling to understand what exactly you believe.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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16-11-2010, 08:35 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(16-11-2010 06:25 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Gamutman has been talking about something unrelated to what I've been talking about and I've pointed that out to him. You guys seem obsessed with hunting down easy prey. I wish you good sport with that I really do. If you're not interested in thinking about it seriously and rationally then perhaps you should avoid talking with me.

If so, that's less my fault than yours. It's what happens when you speak in riddles.
(16-11-2010 06:25 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  @ gamutman: all of them
So this is your answer to which claims form the bible are unrefuted? All claims from the bible (including all the ones I just thoroughly refuted) are unrefuted? I think I'll take your advice and stop talking to you. You're far too dishonest.
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17-11-2010, 03:39 PM
RE: Argument of the week
gamutman - let me try to make it clearer for you... take http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ - all of those refutations fail. I've challenged people several times to find one example that holds water, and not one does. I've tried hard to find one myself. It isn't enough to say that you've refuted anything, you have to put it up to scrutiny and defend the logic. If you fail, then your refutation fails.

Hey BnW

- did god create the earth and everything on it in 6 days and rest on the 7th?
Not literally no.

- was Eve created from the rib of Adam?
Not literally no.

- was there a Garden of Eden and were Adam and Eve cast from it for eating from the tree of knowledge?
I've already said, no.

- was there a Noah and a great flood?
Not literally, no.

- was Jesus Christ born of a virgin mother (meaning he was not conceived through sex, not that Mary was a virgin)?
Yes

- did he die on the cross, rise from the dead and ascend to heaven?
Yes

The bible is about god - his nature and his interaction with his people. It's never a science book. It's interesting that you find a mainstream viewpoint "all over the place". I speak with many Christians from many denominations who all agree with what I'm saying.
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17-11-2010, 04:41 PM
RE: Argument of the week
No, it's not certainly not a science book. And, thanks for the clarifications, that helps me a lot.

Anyway, I absolutely find a mainstream view point all over the place because it's a complete farce and completely in contradiction to the bible. Here's why: the bible is the literal word of God and everything in it is true, or it's a work of fiction. There is nothing within the book that provides for any middle ground. The bible does not claim to be metaphorical; the bible does not claim to be about God's nature and his interaction with his people. The bible claims to be the absolute truth on god, on Jesus and how the world was created and everything that happened after that. In the beginning there was nothing and then God said "let there be light". That is not a metaphor or considered a fable. Ask any fundamentalist Christian what that means and they will tell you unequivocally that that is the literal word of God and an accurate representation of how the world was created.

When you get into these mainstream interpretations and you start down the road of "this is meant literally and this is not", you very quickly find yourself away from your religion as it was set forth and find yourself in the realm of what I like to refer to as "just making shit up". You're view of the bible, where God did not create the Earth in 6 days, were Eve was not created from the rib of Adam, when there was no flood but there is still a God and a Jesus, and he rose from the dead, etc. etc. etc., is basically just making shit up. You don't get to pick and chose the part of the story that are inconvenient because they don't make sense to you. That is not what faith is and that is not what Christianity is.

The bible is either real or it is not. You can't credibly claim that it is both because the book itself does not claim it is both. I've no doubt you're going to deny this but this is a fundamental problem with your view: there is no such thing as "mainstream Christianity", or "mainstream Judaism. The old testament is roughly 5,000 years old and for most of those 5,000 years people believe it was the literal word of god explaining the creation of life, the universe and everything. Now, in the modern age when we have the ability to blow holes through large chunks of it we come to the conclusion that maybe just every 3rd page is literal and the rest are metaphors? Seriously?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

And, coming back with "it's about his nature and his interaction with people" is not an answer to this problem, Fr0d0. The bible is real or it is not. You believe in it or you do not. There is no middle ground. You have to realize that.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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17-11-2010, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2010 05:10 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: Argument of the week
(17-11-2010 04:41 PM)BnW Wrote:  And, coming back with "it's about his nature and his interaction with people" is not an answer to this problem, Fr0d0. The bible is real or it is not. You believe in it or you do not. There is no middle ground. You have to realize that.

Bet you a tenner he comes back with something along the lines of "I don't have to do anything you tell me to"
(17-11-2010 03:39 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  gamutman - let me try to make it clearer for you... take http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ - all of those refutations fail.

frodo... that is a link to an online bible... with annotations..
so are you claiming the entirety of the bible is unrefuted proof of itself?... *coughs* circular logic *coughs* sorry I think I need to see a Dr.
if thats true than you've just claimed everything in the bible is infallible proof the bible is true... right before claiming some things in the bible shouldn't be taken literally.... T_T

oh and saying "I could give you proof but you don't want to see it" is not a compelling argument, especially after you've claimed that it has remained unrefuted over 5000 years.


P.S. I have a completely serious question for you frodo, did you not notice the 'refuting the bible' page on your way into the forum???

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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