Argument of the week
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17-11-2010, 05:45 PM
RE: Argument of the week
Hey BnW

What I see there is you trying to force your narrow view of what the bible is and back that up by saying that some fundamentalists agree with you. I would agree that fundamentalists do use mental gymnastics to come up with their ridiculous propositions, but the history of Christianity, the Judaic tradition that bore it, and the Mainstream Christian Church disagrees with them. That is not to say that I don't consider those people to be Christians... because even given their illogical stance, they still adhere to the Mainstream Church standard of the Nicene Creed.

We read the bible as it is written - taking all of it as spiritual truth. You're telling Christians what they believe. Let me start telling you what you believe - see if I can come up with as much bullshit as you...
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17-11-2010, 09:19 PM
RE: Argument of the week
(15-11-2010 06:11 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  
(14-11-2010 02:47 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Actually, "Not believing in something specific but believing something could exist as creator behind all that is" is compatible with atheism...


Interesting. I thought that would be more akin to agnosticism.

I consider myself an atheist, but I would still be willing to believe in a creator. I very certain that the bible god didn't creat everything or any other current nonsense. Dawkins pointed out that being 100% certain about anything would be madness. That is, after all, what makes us different than theist. We are willing to be proven wrong they are not.
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17-11-2010, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2010 10:12 PM by BnW.)
RE: Argument of the week
Quote:What I see there is you trying to force your narrow view of what the bible is and back that up by saying that some fundamentalists agree with you.

No, not "some" fundamentalists. All fundamentalist. All of them. Find me one who does not. And, that has been the way the bible has been read for a majority of the past 2,000 years (and around 5,000 for the old testament). You expect me to believe that everyone who came before you was just wrong and now, finally, the truth has been revealed to a select few?

Quote:I would agree that fundamentalists do use mental gymnastics to come up with their ridiculous propositions, but the history of Christianity, the Judaic tradition that bore it, and the Mainstream Christian Church disagrees with them.

Ok, two questions here:

First, what history specifically disagrees with the fundamentalist view? Please point me to anything that backs up that claim and I'll happily read every word of it.

Second, what is the "Mainstream Christian Church"? Is this an actual church or simply a group of professed Christians who are trying to squeeze their beliefs and the bible into the modern world? I strongly suspect it's the latter but that doesn't make it legitimate.

Quote:We read the bible as it is written - taking all of it as spiritual truth. You're telling Christians what they believe. Let me start telling you what you believe - see if I can come up with as much bullshit as you...

No, you don't take it as it is written. That's the point. If you take it as written then you have to accept creation in 6 days, Eve from Adam, the flood, etc. etc. etc. That is the literal interpretation of how it is written. Go walk into any protestant church and ask them and see what answer you get. I'm pretty sure that, with very few exceptions, you'll get the answer I just set out.

And, what exactly did I say that is bullshit? These are not my positions as I don't believe any of it. But, this is what Christians - a group you claim to belong to - believe. That is the religion. You're in or you're out; the bible does not allow for middle ground.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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17-11-2010, 10:16 PM
RE: Argument of the week
I got into a similar argument before when asking why women choose Islam and this guy got all pissed and said I didn't have the right to tell Muslims what they believe. So I said I wasn't, I was quoting from the Koran, to which he replied that didn't matter because thats not what most Muslims believe. It seems we're defining religious beliefs by what the modern day groups have decided instead of the holy doctrines the religion is based around. If that's so, they want to change their name to Neo-Christians or something to signify that they have discarded the word of the lord in exchange for a more convenient lifestyle.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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18-11-2010, 12:15 AM
RE: Argument of the week
Let's see. You make up your own personal god and claim it is the god of your favorite religion. Then you pick and choose which passages you believe in and which you don't so that you can have a god that suits you. Then you claim that you follow the religion that you doctored to suit yourself and that your doctored version is the actual truth. Then when someone points out what you are really doing you react with denial, fallacious arguements, name calling and accusations. Yep, I think you know what you are talking about. Maybe you should do what you told me to do.
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18-11-2010, 12:51 AM
RE: Argument of the week
(15-11-2010 07:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Of those limited things the bible has right, not only do I wonder what they are, but also on what basis you deem them to be correct.

Sure I'd be happy to comply. Smile

The most common that I can give is the idea of a day of rest (not the Jewish kind). Taking a day off to relive stress is a wonderful idea but I think we would have easily come to that conclusion with or without a religion. It still doesn't remove the fact that it's good advice however.

What I mean by limited however is that what the bible says we should do ON the Sabbath is silly. Killing people because they don't take the same day off as you is ridiculous and immoral to the extreme. On a side note isn't it work on the Sabbath to throw stones to stone a man to death?

Another good example is the example of.....as hell. I should have used the singular. hehe. I was going to post the love your neighbor bit but when I think about it if you don't like yourself or treat yourself well that's not really good advice. Better advice would be "Treat your neighbor with kindness and love." or "Always try your best to see the world from another point of view" there's tons of better ways of getting to the same point.

I must concede I should not have used the plural there. Most any idea outside of the Sabbath I can think of I can come up with far better ways of phrasing things.

That and I don't want to list specific commandments when a lot of the commandments are total crap or do not apply to modern society.

I suppose that's more of what I meant along the lines of limited. A few points are there but the phrasing or presentation is garbage.
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18-11-2010, 07:01 AM
RE: Argument of the week
There are certainly things in the bible that are correct. Some of the history set forth in the bible are backed up by the archeological record. Not so much specifics of "who and what" but more of "where and when". There have been, in the past, attempts to dig where the bible says something occurred and evidence has been found to support the claims that the place existed at around the time the bible says it does.

Of course the faithful see this as absolute proof the bible is entirely real. However, the authors were from what is now Israel, so of course they were going to right about places they knew. New York City is a real place too, but that doesn't mean that Spiderman swings from the buildings like in the movie.

The bible also talks about certain things on hygiene, cooking animals, etc. Some of it is wrong and some of it is right, or at least fight for that time period.

So, yes, Godless' original comment that the bible has some things right is fundamentally correct.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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18-11-2010, 08:10 AM
RE: Argument of the week
The OT or the Tanakh does lay out rules for preparing food and avoiding shellfish and pork, but there is no real reason to assume that those rules were about hygiene. It may be that people ate shellfish and got sick from parasites or ate pork and became ill from trichinosis so the bible writers ordered a stop to eating these foods and warned that God considered them abhorrent, but that's not exactly the same as a concern over hygiene. Also, there is a theory that the reason Jews stopped eating pork has less to do with safety and more to do with the fact that pork tastes a lot like human meat, and it was an effort to stop cannibalism.
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18-11-2010, 08:36 AM
RE: Argument of the week
I wasn't saying that the rules on food had to do with hygiene. The Old Testament has material solely on hygiene, and really feminine hygiene, independent of food preparation.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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18-11-2010, 08:36 AM
RE: Argument of the week
I do apologise for being unclear. I meant to ask what the bible had right as in "lessons in morality". The point being that the bible doesn't teach anything about morality that couldn't be learned elsewhere. In fact, nothing that the bible came up with regarding morality. Take the ten commandments for example. Murder (one I hope we can all agree is immoral). Do christians really think that people who lived before the bible was written didn't know that it's wrong to go out and randomly pop a cap in someones ass?? (Was going to say "pop a spear in someones ass" but it raised some pretty painful images)
I suppose my point was just that the bible didn't figure anything out that wasn't figured out before it. (I'm talking, of course, about morality, not all the crappy stuff in the bible)

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