Argument with a theist
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21-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Argument with a theist
@TheCanadianArchetype. Please show me where God commands rape?
Deut 22:25 - 26. speaks of rape and the man get death NOT the woman.
Deut 22:28 - 29. Assumes consensual sex or a "one night stand".
As for the rest. God gave life God has the right to take life including children and infants, Which I personally believe they would be with God in heaven. I do not deny the coming wrath of God upon those those who reject Him since its clearly taught in scriptures. John 3:36, Rev 6:16, 16:1, 19:15.

I have a number of ways I could respond to this fool but lets hear how everyone else would.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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21-09-2010, 02:18 PM
RE: Argument with a theist
I would respond by suggesting this person read ALL of the bible, not just the parts his church leader told him to. Start with Numbers 31:17-18, Isaiah 13:15, Genesis 19:6, and Judges 19:22-29. Just a couple to get him started.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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21-09-2010, 02:25 PM
RE: Argument with a theist
This is his reply to my message I sent him.

Numbers 31:7-18: The Midianites were previously involved in leading Israel into sin which caused God to judge the nation, so the death penalty for those involved was just. The virgin girls who were spared would have been mostly little girls who were too young to be married, and too young to be much good as slaves. So this is a case of the girls being mercifully absorbed into the nation of Israel.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: This passage laid out the rules for marrying a captive woman from the nations that the Israelites conquered. This is not rape, but marriage. This was actually merciful; the fact that there are any laws to protect captive women shows how far ahead of its time the Mosaic Law was. The woman was not allowed to be sold as a slave if the man disliked her; he had to let her go free.

Exodus 21:7-11: This is one of the most-cited instances of misogyny in the Bible; apparently, the skeptic crows, the Bible regards women as property, so the father can sell his daughter as a slave if he wants to! But this is more like the following situation: A family is destitute. The father has the choice of letting his teenage daughter starve with the rest of the family, or he can 'sell' her to someone better off who can take care of her, and the money he gets can help the rest of the family to survive. This is really a form of giving in marriage, but such that the woman's children do not automatically have inheritance rights (the husband can give her the status of a full wife, and her children full inheritance rights, at a later time if he wants). It isn't what one would read in a modern romance novel, but in the ancient world (without the social welfare system that atheistic web writers often live off), it would mean the difference between survival and starvation for the woman and her family.
Passages taken out of context to support rape:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: To understand the reason behind this law, it is necessary to point out a few details. First, the Hebrew word here is simply the word "to have sexual relations with"; some English translations simply interpret this as "rape." In the ancient world, women were so closely guarded by their families that it is possible that in this instance, it is not rape at all, and that the woman was willing. Furthermore, even in the case of rape, the woman might well demand that the man marry her because she would be unmarriageable. See 2 Samuel 13:1--22 for an instance where a rape victim demanded marriage.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24: Like the above, this law uses the word for "to have sexual relations with"; some modern translations assume the meaning "rape" but this is not in the original. This refers specifically to engaged women (in the ancient world engagement was as legally binding as marriage and required a divorce to cancel) who are inside a town. As closely-packed as ancient towns were, she would be helped if she screamed; since she did not scream, there is an assumption that it was not rape, but adultery.

Furthermore, why is the atheist concerned? Two atheistic evolutionists wrote a book with the horrifying claim that men rape for evolutionary reasons1—one of them squirmed in an interview to justify why rape should be considered wrong under his worldview.

http://creation.com/evil-bible-fallacies

RE:
so by your logic if I want to kill my children I can do so without anyone looking down upon me because they are my creations,

Answer
Do you think YOUR GOD... Your Children are NOT your "creation"

RE:
Next I'd like to state even if your God was real I'd sooner choose hell than have to grovel for all eternity to a tyrannical dictator who flies off in a homicidal sadistic rage if you so much as doubt him.

Answer
You assume you have a choice to repent or not?

I. TOTAL DEPRAVITY

A. Arminian Position: Man is spiritually sick. Fallen man was seriously affected by the fall but he still has the ability to choose spiritual good. He determines his eternal destiny by either accepting or rejecting God's mercies.

B. Reformed Position: Man is spiritually dead. Because of the fall, man has become spiritually dead, blind and deaf to the things of God and is therefore unable of himself to choose spiritual good and determine his own destiny.

C. Scriptural Support for the Reformed Position

1. The fall has resulted in spiritual death to all men.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
2. Fallen man is now blind and deaf to spiritual truth.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
3. Fallen man is now under the control of Satan and in bondage to sin.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
4. Fallen man, left in his dead state, is totally unable to repent, to believe the gospel, or to come to Christ.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


D. Key Quotations. 1. Westminster Confession of Faith IX,3

Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.


http://home.comcast.net/~wittenberggate/...ptures.htm

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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22-09-2010, 12:26 AM
RE: Argument with a theist
(21-09-2010 02:25 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Numbers 31:7-18: The Midianites were previously involved in leading Israel into sin which caused God to judge the nation, so the death penalty for those involved was just. The virgin girls who were spared would have been mostly little girls who were too young to be married, and too young to be much good as slaves. So this is a case of the girls being mercifully absorbed into the nation of Israel.

Let me see if I get this straight. You kill a girl's mother, father, brothers, aunts, uncles and most of everyone else she knows, and you capture her against her will. I am having a hard time understanding how that idiot can say this is merciful. He needs a brain transplant.
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22-09-2010, 04:51 AM
 
RE: Argument with a theist
It's just a case of how you 'interpret' the bible. The theist will always find ways to rationalize the violence contained therein.

I fail to understand why Richard Dawkins "squirmed" during his interview. He seems pretty bright and the sophomoric argument of the theist could have been refuted easily. Rape is not about sex and procreation - rape is violence committed on its victims (male and female). It's easy to understand how violence inflicted on someone is immoral.
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22-09-2010, 06:14 AM
 
RE: Argument with a theist
(22-09-2010 04:51 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  It's just a case of how you 'interpret' the bible. The theist will always find ways to rationalize the violence contained therein.

I fail to understand why Richard Dawkins "squirmed" during his interview. He seems pretty bright and the sophomoric argument of the theist could have been refuted easily. Rape is not about sex and procreation - rape is violence committed on its victims (male and female). It's easy to understand how violence inflicted on someone is immoral.

I would question who was the one saying that he "squirmed".. IF it is the argument of the theist that he squirmed, I would be very likely to believe that he did not. There is a video on Youtube (a theist video) that claims that Bill Maher got pwned by a theist. That clip is the interview the Maher did with Ham for Religulous.
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22-09-2010, 08:16 AM
 
RE: Argument with a theist
The transcript of the interview with Dawkins is here:

http://creation.com/atheism

It's about 1/4 of the way down. If that quotation is accurate, I'd say Dawkins seemed to have trouble responding. I find that surprising, actually.
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23-09-2010, 03:05 AM
RE: Argument with a theist
(22-09-2010 04:51 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  I fail to understand why Richard Dawkins "squirmed" during his interview. He seems pretty bright and the sophomoric argument of the theist could have been refuted easily.

There are a few videos that have been creatively edited by creationists, pun intended, that make it appear that Richard squirmed. These are the kind of underhanded tactics that creationists use to attack the credibility of others, because they themselves (the creationists) don't have any credibility.
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23-09-2010, 04:56 AM
RE: Argument with a theist
(23-09-2010 03:05 AM)No J. Wrote:  
(22-09-2010 04:51 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  I fail to understand why Richard Dawkins "squirmed" during his interview. He seems pretty bright and the sophomoric argument of the theist could have been refuted easily.

There are a few videos that have been creatively edited by creationists, pun intended, that make it appear that Richard squirmed. These are the kind of underhanded tactics that creationists use to attack the credibility of others, because they themselves (the creationists) don't have any credibility.

''Thou shalt not bear false witness''.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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23-09-2010, 11:24 PM
RE: Argument with a theist
(23-09-2010 04:56 AM)Kikko Wrote:  ''Thou shalt not bear false witness''.

Bearing false witness is the trademark of creationists and many other religious people. And they claim to do what the bible says they that they are to do. Hypocrisy to the max.
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