Arguments Against Theism
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15-09-2011, 04:04 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(15-09-2011 10:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 01:09 PM)cufflink Wrote:  Seems to me that on average, everybody there was a lot better off before they heard the so-called Good News, wouldn't you say?

No. What you are failing to take into consideration is the fact that no one has ever completely lived up to what he knows about right and wrong and so all who have never heard the gospel will be condemned. It is true that some who hear will reject it and so face a more sever punishment than the would otherwise have received but some will believe it and have their sins forgiven.

So, according to you, it seems the only thing to do to avoid hell is to accept Jesus, right? Now, I have to accept Jesus while I'm alive, because I've heard of it. Random tribespeople get a chance after they are dead, is what I'm getting from you. So yah, it's better to not hear of the message, because then you get a chance to get evidence. What with the after-death experience and all.

But, anyway, it's all a silly discussion anyway. After all... why doesn't God just... oh... I don't know... FUCKING FORGIVE EVERYONE?! Seems a much simpler plan than his convoluted suicide by cop trick.
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15-09-2011, 09:24 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(15-09-2011 11:44 AM)sgilbs Wrote:  Also watch out for ultra dogmatic atheists.

Whats one of these Mr Woof? sounds like an oxymoron to me?
Hello Sgilbs.
Believe me they abound and I've had to deal with quite a few.
Indeed there are some who would make a god of Dawkins.Wink
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16-09-2011, 09:02 AM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(15-09-2011 09:24 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(15-09-2011 11:44 AM)sgilbs Wrote:  Also watch out for ultra dogmatic atheists.

Whats one of these Mr Woof? sounds like an oxymoron to me?
Hello Sgilbs.
Believe me they abound and I've had to deal with quite a few.
Indeed there are some who would make a god of Dawkins.Wink

hehehe He would make a half ass decent God...

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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16-09-2011, 01:11 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
I've gone round and round with religious friends on why I do not believe in God. I generally focus on the fact that the evidence uncovered by scientific methods trumps religious beliefs on every front. That usual makes me feel good but seldom does anything to persuade them into critical thinking.

I finally found that the only thing I really need to do is to ask them questions. Why, What, How, etc.: Why do you believe this? What is the evidence for that? How do you know this? Why do you think that? In the end their final answer will almost certainly be "because the Bible says so". Your last question before you walk away, "What if the bible isn't true?"
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16-09-2011, 01:55 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(16-09-2011 01:11 PM)free2011 Wrote:  I finally found that the only thing I really need to do is to ask them questions. Why, What, How, etc.: Why do you believe this? What is the evidence for that? How do you know this? Why do you think that? In the end their final answer will almost certainly be "because the Bible says so". Your last question before you walk away, "What if the bible isn't true?"

But it is true! it is, it is, it is, it is true!

I like your way of dealing with it but you know it won't stop the denial. To me, they don't really believe in their bible. They don't have to. They believe in denial.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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16-09-2011, 04:23 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(13-09-2011 10:37 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  1. At most, 99.xxxx% of religions and gods are man-made. Only one, and in special cases a few (Can't you be Shintoist and Buddhist?) can be correct (though they can all be wrong). If so, we have proved that the majority of religions are man-made and false.

2. What happens to those who do not know about xTianity? Are they doomed to Hell? Obviously someone in the world has died without knowing about God, so what happens to them?

ALL religions and gods were invented by humans. From a belief that there were spirits in everything in Nature, supernatural beings were invented.

The Hindus have millions of them!

No one is born with a knowledge of any god or gods. If someone remained in isolation from birth there would never be any god that revealed itself and said "Hey, I'm your god!" We only know of god or gods from what other humans tell us. This would also be influenced by where you were born, as the gods vary from place to place, country to country.

Christians only comprise 25%(at most) of the World's population and most of them aren't Christians in the true sense of the word, many stating that they are just because of societal norms. So, probably at most, only 10% of the World's population are true Christians. How does that make them "right"?

Yehweh(the storm god), the Jewish/Christian/Islamic god was also invented, probably one of the 70 sons of El(invented) who was an invented son of Elyon.

The Caanites/Israelites/Hebrews worshipped many gods, of which Yahweh was just one, but became polytheist when they believed that Yahweh brought them out of Egypt.

The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians had many, many gods, and even Constantine after declaring Christianity was the "one true religion with the one true god" was still a practising Pagan.

So, if we see that Yahweh was an invented god, Jesus declaring that he was son of god(Yahweh) cannot possibly be a god, Yahweh being invented.

What hapens after death to those who don't believe in the Christian god ? The same as happens to those who aren't Christians. Absolutely nothing. They rot and become worm food the same as Christians, completing the circle of life on this planet for all life forms. Birth, life, death, food for other life forms.

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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18-09-2011, 03:21 AM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
Off Topic, but I can't resist; Mr Woof- Ultra dogmatic atheists? What the fuck is that? Atheist = don't believe in God. Are there levels of disbelief? As in; "I don't believe in God, but not as much as that asshole over there, he NEVER believes in God." And how do I become an Ultra Dogmatic Atheist? Do I have to never believe in God in ALL-CAPS? Do I get to wear a superhero costume with a big 'UDA' on the front of it? I'm thoroughly confused as to how one atheist can be "more" atheist than another.

As per the thread topic; at 15, you're off to a good start, and asking some good questions. To expand and bolster your positions, watch videos featuring Sam Harris and Matt Dillahunty (The Atheist Experience), for starters. And enjoy reading God Is Not Great; I certainly did.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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18-09-2011, 04:45 AM
 
RE: Arguments Against Theism
Hey guys, hello!
First post in this forum.

So, first I am not an atheist all the time. I am just a mere ape with a naturalistic worldview, most of the time. I can't be an atheist without any theist nearby, can I? Afterall, I am no a-unicorn either. But that is my opinion from Germany, where atheists are mostly accepted. (Not that we wouldn't have any antiatheist hatred at all, but it is really moderate and mostly well hidden.) So I only start being an atheist when I meet a theist. I think this difference is important. We shouldn't define our worldviews and philosophies by what it's not.

Well, I often discuss religion and I created, as I think, quite a strong argument:

Imagine a glass box. A huge glass box. As big as a decent suburb house. It's filled with nothing but air. And it is completely closed. Inpenetrable, so nothing can get in or out. Nothing at all. You cover it up with a non-see-through sheet. So you can't see it. Keep the sheet on the box for 100 years. After 100 years, you remove the sheet and you find an apple in the box. Now, you have the big problem of how the apple came into the box. It would be logical to just assume it popped out of nowhere until you find a better reason. But just assuming that in the box had always been an invisible apple tree is just plain stupid, isn't it? (Even if this is considerable as a valid theory, it would be plain stupid to think this is the answer)

So, this is my main argument against theists. But it won't work, most of times. Most theists just accussed me of mocking them instead of thinking about this metaphor.
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18-09-2011, 02:18 PM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(14-09-2011 10:27 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 10:37 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  2. What happens to those who do not know about xTianity? Are they doomed to Hell? Obviously someone in the world has died without knowing about God, so what happens to them?

Since I am a Christian I will try to answer this part of your post.

Everyone has some knowledge of God. He has revealed himself through what he has created and he has given us an innate sense of right and wrong. You can read what the Bible says about this here:

http://www.esvbible.org/search/romans+1%3A18+-+2%3A16/

In judging our lives God takes into consideration how much knowledge we have and those who don't know as much about God will be judged more leniently that those who know more. However God's standard is that we live up completely to what we know is right. No one have ever met this standard. (If you doubt this, just examine your own life. Have you ever done anything you knew was wrong?) That means that we all deserve condemnation.

God is holy and his holiness won't allow him to tolerate any sin in his presence. The only way we can avoid the punishment we deserve and that is why God sent Jesus into the world; he was sinless but he voluntarily died to pay the penalty we deserve so that we can be forgiven if we put our trust in him.

But there are many people who have never heard of what Jesus did. First of all, they will be better off in the final judgment that those who have heard the message of salvation and rejected it. But God has also promised that anyone who seeks him wholeheartedly will find him. If a person lives up to what he knows God will give him more knowledge.

One example of this is the Wise Men who came because they knew that a king of the Jews had been born.

http://www.esvbible.org/search/matthew+2%3A1-12/

They knew about this from their study of the stars and this led them to Jerusalem. There the religious leaders who knew the Scriptures told them that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem and so they went there. They acted on the knowledge they had and God gave them more knowledge.

Another example was a centurion named Cornelius.

http://www.esvbible.org/search/acts+10%3A1-8/

He had obviously learned something about God from his contact with the Jews but he didn't know how he could be saved by faith in Jesus. But he was putting into practice what he did know and God sent an angel to tell him how he could hear the message of salvation.

So what happened to all the people prior to your religion being invented by men? They all went to hell too I guess?
A fairly cruel fate for BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of people.

I guess that is what they meant by, timing is everything.
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19-09-2011, 11:06 AM
RE: Arguments Against Theism
(18-09-2011 04:45 AM)Call-Me-Joe Wrote:  Imagine a glass box. A huge glass box. As big as a decent suburb house. It's filled with nothing but air. And it is completely closed. Inpenetrable, so nothing can get in or out. Nothing at all. You cover it up with a non-see-through sheet. So you can't see it. Keep the sheet on the box for 100 years. After 100 years, you remove the sheet and you find an apple in the box. Now, you have the big problem of how the apple came into the box. It would be logical to just assume it popped out of nowhere until you find a better reason. But just assuming that in the box had always been an invisible apple tree is just plain stupid, isn't it? (Even if this is considerable as a valid theory, it would be plain stupid to think this is the answer)

If there is no natural explanation for the existence of the apple there must be a supernatural one. If this actually took place it would be evidence for the existence of God.

(18-09-2011 02:18 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  So what happened to all the people prior to your religion being invented by men? They all went to hell too I guess?
A fairly cruel fate for BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of people.

I guess that is what they meant by, timing is everything.

There have always been people who had a knowledge of God and had faith in his promises. They were saved by faith just as people are today.

Quote:And behold, the word of the Lord came to Abraham: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the Lord, and jhe counted it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:4-6 ESV

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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