Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
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07-08-2013, 12:01 PM
Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
What is the best argument (or least objectionable) you have encountered FOR the existence of God or the validity of a religion? I mean something beyond the usual cliches such as "You can't disprove God" or "The Bible says so" or the argument from design.

No I am not looking for a reason to abandon my atheism but I do want to make sure my beliefs are solid and that I can effectively counter any argument for God.

Any recommendations for books, podcasts, YouTube videos or web sites that express a PRO belief argument are appreciated.

No religion, belief system or person as THE answer to everything. I immediately distrust anyone who makes that claim.
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07-08-2013, 12:09 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
I haven't come across any argument for god. I only found good arguments for having faith, basically they go around the freedom to maintain cognitive dissonance. But other than that... nothing

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07-08-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
For the existence of god... none, sorry.

For the validity of religion, there's the social control argument. The masses need something to keep them in line when their betters aren't looking over their shoulders. Religion accomplishes that.

I find that argument paternalistic, arrogant, and self-serving. All it has going for it is that it maintains a system that does in fact contribute to keeping aristocratic power over most of the population. It's evil, of course, but that's hardly a factor if you've already decided to oppress people somehow.

Keep in mind, religion isn't the ONLY way to do this, just an expedient one. Doesn't cost (the elite) much, because the masses fund it themselves. Hard for the poor to rise up against, because doing so breaks solidarity with natural allies. And there's a strong motivation for parents to infect children with it as early as possible. Compare this to, say, slavery. It's expensive to trade and maintain human property, rising up against owners fosters solidarity (like Spartacus), and parents want nothing better than for their children to escape it. Getting a god to enslave people for you is way better. If you're already dedicated to doing wrong, that is.

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07-08-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
About the best I think is the argument from design. I know it's then a case of who designed the designer, but... if you picture the days when we didn't really have a credible theory for how we got here, and you look at the insane complexity and interconnectedness of every part of the natural world, including human and animal bodies... it's kinda mind-boggling...

I think that's why a lot of religious guys are now focusing on how bad science is etc, pushing the evolution is a theory line. 'Cos if you implant the idea that evolution is just a bunch of assholes making up stuff to spite Christianity, telling lies just to lead people astray, and you contrast it with the obvious complexity and beauty of nature, then suddenly argument from design seems credible.

It sounds crazy but a lot of Christians actually do think like this, including several of my personal friends.

I don't think that there is any really convincing argument for God though... not even something that comes close. All of it's too woo based. Whenever they try to reference science they invariably get it completely arse about face if they're sincere, or use phony big words and reference outdated papers or similar tricks if they're dickheads. And get it arse about face on top of that.
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07-08-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
Cosmological arguments of the deist variety aren't completely worthless.

Still obviates any sort of religion, mind, not to mention the anti-Ockham nature of it...

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07-08-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
I think it was my uncle that once asked me: "Before the big bang, before the existence of the world and everything we know. What was then? What started it all, before the big bang which started all we know?".

I'm not sure it's the best argument, but to this day, it's still one of the things I can't answer.
Even if, by chance, some brainiac one day told me "oh, we have discovered what was before the big bang" (which by the way, probably is waay to complicated for me to understand), then I guess the question would be; "what was before that"?
Eventually there will be a point, where we can no longer answer "what was before", and it seems to some people the logical reason is that at one point all there was, was God.

Not sure if it makes any sense?
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07-08-2013, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2013 02:39 PM by morondog.)
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
The standard answer from a science pov is that we don't know what happened before the big bang. We have clear evidence for the big bang. Not knowing what happened before the big bang doesn't imply a deity though.

Also people tend to posit that time is a property of *this* universe. So... there's an out in that talking of an event before the universe existed and had time is kinda difficult.
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07-08-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
(07-08-2013 02:32 PM)MuffinPuffin Wrote:  I think it was my uncle that once asked me: "Before the big bang, before the existence of the world and everything we know. What was then? What started it all, before the big bang which started all we know?".

I'm not sure it's the best argument, but to this day, it's still one of the things I can't answer.
Even if, by chance, some brainiac one day told me "oh, we have discovered what was before the big bang" (which by the way, probably is waay to complicated for me to understand), then I guess the question would be; "what was before that"?
Eventually there will be a point, where we can no longer answer "what was before", and it seems to some people the logical reason is that at one point all there was, was God.

Not sure if it makes any sense?

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07-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
Ask hoc and Girly. They know about the Eastern concept of Tao, more than most.
There could be seen a "conflation" of (European) Christian "mysticism", (see the "Cloud of the Unknowing", by the unknown English Medieval mystic), and "mystical contemplation", usually found in Western monasticism, (see Wiki for both), and the Eastern concept of the "Tao", and modern "agnosticism". All of then can be seen as a "standing before an unknown". That's the only legitimate concept I have ever seen. They all make no specific statements or claims.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-08-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Arguments FOR God/Religion Beyond the Cliches
(07-08-2013 02:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  The standard answer from a science pov is that we don't know what happened before the big bang. We have clear evidence for the big bang. Not knowing what happened before the big bang doesn't imply a deity though.

Also people tend to posit that time is a property of *this* universe. So... there's an out in that talking of an event before the universe existed and had time is kinda difficult.

I agree. Time and space are inextricably linked to the universe so there can be no before or outside of this universe. You're right, it is difficult to comprehend and even very thoughtful apologists cannot grasp the concept because it so intuitive to think of time and existence "outside" the universe.

No religion, belief system or person as THE answer to everything. I immediately distrust anyone who makes that claim.
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