Arguments against Idealism
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22-02-2017, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2017 01:05 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 11:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I fancy this fanciful concept to be a conceit.

Removing Monet's concept and yours and mine removes the conceiver/perceiver/sensor and the conceiving/perceiving/sensing but not the sensible object.

That's a sensible point. Tongue


(22-02-2017 11:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  That tree still fell unwitnessed and unheard even with no one there to hear it.

The counter argument would be there is no tree. Tongue

(22-02-2017 11:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Because ... oil.

Unsure

And the Jews. It's always the Jews.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 11:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The only reason human brains can conceive of anything, is that they have LEARNED and interacted with reality.

It's equivocating (dishonestly) "seeing" and "conceiving".

That's also a fair point.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 11:47 AM)Vera Wrote:  I am perfectly aware that doesn't really add much (if anything) to the discussion. However, as Samuel Butler said “poetry resembles metaphysics: one does not mind one's own, but one does not like anyone else's.” I ain't much one for poetry but even less so for metaphysics. So there. Drinking Beverage

Sure it does. Dude was philosopher-poet (is there really much of a difference) into pantheistic transcendentalism. When I read the first stanza I thought it might be Blake.

"He hints that metaphysics and religiosity strive 'to find in everything a beyond'."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2017 01:50 PM by Vera.)
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 01:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  "He hints that metaphysics and religiosity strive 'to find in everything a beyond'."

Wow, that's a great way of putting it!

Pessoa is deservedly Portugal's best poet (and one of Europe's, too). And I think you might really appreciate him...

"I never had anyone I could call “Master”. No Christ died for me. No Buddha showed me the right path. In the depths of my dreams no Apollo or Athena appeared to me to enlighten my soul."

Which (of course!) reminds of something else. This brilliant song by the brilliant Fabrizio de Andre (a bit like an Italian Leonard Cohen... but I think I like him more. Sadly, the English translations of his lyrics are not always as good as the Italian originals...)

"When death calls me,
no one in the world will realize
that a man died without speaking,
without knowing the truth,
that a man died without praying,
fleeing the burden of piety."


Here's the whole of it:

When death calls for me,
maybe someone will protest
after having read in the will
what inheritance I am leaving them.
Don’t curse me, it won’t do any good,
I’ll be so far into hell already.

To the protectors of the hookers
I leave an accountant's task
so that experts in their line of work
keep the populace informed

at the end of every week
about the capital gains of a whore,
at the end of every week
about the capital gains of a whore.

I wish to leave to White Mary,
who doesn’t give a damn about decency,
a certificate of merit
that might pave the way to marriage,

with all good wishes to whoever fell for it
to keep themselves happy and betrayed,
with all good wishes to whoever fell for it
to keep themselves happy and betrayed.

Sister Death, leave me the time
to finalize my will,
leave me the time to say goodbye,
to pay my respects, to give thanks to
all the great masters of ring-around-the-rosie
‘round the bed of a dying man.

Mister gravedigger, listen to me a little.
Everyone dislikes your work,
they don’t consider it such a great joke
to cover with earth whoever rests in peace.

And for this reason I am proud
to award you the golden spade.
And for this reason I am proud
to award you the golden spade.

For that lily-white old countess
who doesn't move an inch from my bed,
so as to extract from me the insane promise
of reserving for her my lottery numbers,

I can’t wait to go among the damned
to reveal all the wrong ones to her.
I can’t wait to go among the damned
to reveal all the wrong ones to her.

When death asks me
to give it back my freedom,
perhaps a tear, maybe just one,
on my tomb will be spent,
perhaps a smile, maybe just one,
from my remembrance will sprout.

If from my meat already eaten away,
where my heart beat out the time,
should one day be born a rose,
I give it to the woman who offered me her tears.

For every beat of her heart
I’ll render to her a red petal of love.
For every beat of her heart
I’ll render to her a red petal of love.

To you who were the most sought-after,
the courtesan who didn’t give it up to just anyone,
you who now, at the corner of that church,
offer likenesses to the beautiful and ugly alike,

I leave the notes of this song.
I sing the sadness of your illusion
to you who, to scrape by, are
compelled to sell Christ and the saints.

When death calls me,
no one in the world will realize
that a man died without speaking,
without knowing the truth,
that a man died without praying,
fleeing the burden of piety.

Dear brothers of the other shore,
we sang in chorus down there on earth,
we loved in hundreds the same woman,
we departed in thousands for the same war.
This memory might not console you all -
when people die, they die alone.
This memory might not console you all -
when people die, they die alone.
"





His song, A Blasphemer, is just...

"And if two guards were the ones who stopped my life,
the forbidden apple is right here on Earth,
and not God, but someone who invented him for us,
forces us to dream of an enchanted garden."


(Also, when I was still religious - but struggling with some things - his lyrics "there is no Hell in the world of a good God" really, really resonated with me)

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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22-02-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
"My read on it is that Berkeley is suggesting that reality is intrinsically ineffable and as soon as we start talking about it it is no longer reality. Whatever it is, we know where your conception of it is - in your head. If you stipulate to that, then it would seem to imply that the physical world is intrinsically unverifiable and hence unnecessary."

'As soon as we start talking about it, it's no longer reality.' Consider
I would say -- as soon as we start talking about it, it becomes a different reality -- one we can either accept or reject, contribute to (and further change) or simply observe. Reality is, whether we are or not. That doesn't mean reality is unverifiable -- but it could mean we are. Wink

***
One can certainly think that perception is the same as "seeing" but then, love & innocence is in the eye of the beholder on death row.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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22-02-2017, 02:57 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 12:50 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-02-2017 10:58 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  He ultimately argues that ideas are all that is real, and that objects can only exist inasmuch as the idea of them is held by a mind (and then goes on to argue that reality exists because it is held within the mind of God, because why not add another spoonful of woo on top of the sundae, right?).

I see. Yes, that is closer to my read. If I leave out the existence of reality and God bit and consider only the master argument on its own, isn't that what the argument says?

And that's EXACTLY the problem with Platonic/Aristotelian/Thomistic *idealism* which is STILL today being taught in Catholic Universities. It's baloney, because humans LEARN the concepts they have. There is today an (in-famous) Catholic philosopher dude in LA who tries to tell his classes that there is actually a "triangle" *out there* that exists metaphysically because we have the idea of it, (or some such bunk). Facepalm

Just for the "slow on the uptake" reading this ... we LEARNED what the word "triangle" means, and our brains LEARNED what is referred to by that word. It does not mean there is some "ideal triangle" out there in reality somewhere.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-02-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 01:52 PM)kim Wrote:  'As soon as we start talking about it, it's no longer reality.' Consider
I would say -- as soon as we start talking about it, it becomes a different reality -- one we can either accept or reject, contribute to (and further change) or simply observe. Reality is, whether we are or not. That doesn't mean reality is unverifiable -- but it could mean we are. Wink

That's what every intuition I have says. I can't even begin to imagine it otherwise without a weekend with Hunter S. Thompson. And that's why I don't trust them. Had enough HST weekends to know better. Always on edge expecting Allen Funk to pop out at anytime and I'll pee my pants in front of everybody.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 06:32 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
That's why you should always wear your fundoshi.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-02-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
I feel the folks like Camus were quite similarly on thought to say it's unverifiable and unnecessary and in refute/non refute began to say... so?

The assumption of deeming it a mental conceptual reality is a step that cannot really be perceived while you're in it.

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22-02-2017, 07:55 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 06:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I feel the folks like Camus were quite similarly on thought to say it's unverifiable and unnecessary and in refute/non refute began to say... so?

I think that's the right response - "So?" It's not even mental masturbation because there's no gratification in it. It's dry jerking.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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