Arguments against Idealism
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22-02-2017, 11:26 PM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
Ah, Camus! There's a name I recognize.

I subscribe to a form of absurdism. "Things are as real to any particular observer as they appear to be." I feel any other attempt to define what is "real" is hopelessly circular.

As for idealism, well that would be great ideally, but we don't live in an ideal world Tongue

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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15-03-2017, 04:34 AM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 09:01 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Given the resurgence in metaphysics here of late, I would like to hear arguments against idealism. Is it fundamentally impossible to refute idealism as suggested in Berkeley's Master Argument? Is it so counter-intuitive and so counter to our own experience as to be dismissed out of hand as ludicrous? Where are the flaws in Berkeley's argument? My read on it is that Berkeley is suggesting that reality is intrinsically ineffable and as soon as we start talking about it it is no longer reality. Whatever it is, we know where your conception of it is - in your head. If you stipulate to that, then it would seem to imply that the physical world is intrinsically unverifiable and hence unnecessary. Which is obviously completely ridiculous and counter-intuitive. But I've been fooled by his intuitions too many times to dismiss it out of hand on those grounds.

The philosopher G.E. Moore did an essay debunking idealism.

http://selfpace.uconn.edu/class/ana/MooreRefute.pdf

G.E. Moore started out as an idealist but abandoned that metaphysical idea. Goggle for G.E. Moore for details. This essay is well known in the philosophical world.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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15-03-2017, 04:39 AM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
(22-02-2017 11:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-02-2017 10:38 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  We certainly know that one doesn't exist outside of Monet's head. You can't show it to me. Whatever you show to me will not be Monet's conception. Even if you show me Monet's conception. Tongue

I fancy this fanciful concept to be a conceit.

Tongue

Removing Monet's concept and yours and mine removes the conceiver/perceiver/sensor and the conceiving/perceiving/sensing but not the sensible object.

That tree still fell unwitnessed and unheard even with no one there to hear it.


"Absolute and Abitofhell", Oxford Magazine, October 1913

There once was a man who said: "God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad."

Langford Reed, The Complete Limerick Book (1924)
The topic of this limerick and the following one is George Berkeley's philosophical principle, "To be is to be perceived".

Dear Sir,
Your astonishment's odd;
I am always about in the Quad;
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours faithfully,
God.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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15-03-2017, 04:39 AM
RE: Arguments against Idealism
[Image: 5bd7bc92a0b25854b2c2bd733401cee4.gif]

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