Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
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10-10-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 10:58 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Too bad we aren't talking about a cause of an experience but the experience itself.

But we ARE talking about the cause of the experience. If you were claiming that you had an experience, even one that affected you deeply, but didn't know what caused it we'd have no disagreement. I'm perfectly willing to take your word that you had an experience since that's a pretty mundane claim.

You go on to claim that the experience proves that you were contacted by some kind of supernatural entity and that you are irrefutably convinced that was the cause of your experience. That is where you go off the rails. A claim like that is extraordinary and requires significant evidence to be believed.

Given what is known about human psychology and how many times people have had hallucinations and psychotic episodes versus the number of confirmed cases of supernatural contact the odds are that you are mistaken. Your attribution of your experience to a god is simply not believable.

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10-10-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 10:52 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So you don't know the things that you experience first hand to be true?
No. By itself, a subjective experience is not enough to establish a truth. There always must be additional supporting evidence to know something is true. Otherwise, you couldn't tell the difference between a dream and reality.

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10-10-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 12:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 10:58 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Too bad we aren't talking about a cause of an experience but the experience itself.

But we ARE talking about the cause of the experience. If you were claiming that you had an experience, even one that affected you deeply, but didn't know what caused it we'd have no disagreement. I'm perfectly willing to take your word that you had an experience since that's a pretty mundane claim.

You go on to claim that the experience proves that you were contacted by some kind of supernatural entity and that you are irrefutably convinced that was the cause of your experience. That is where you go off the rails. A claim like that is extraordinary and requires significant evidence to be believed.

Given what is known about human psychology and how many times people have had hallucinations and psychotic episodes versus the number of confirmed cases of supernatural contact the odds are that you are mistaken. Your attribution of your experience to a god is simply not believable.
I understand that.

But we where speaking of the validity of personal experience as evidence.

I have gone over all other possibilities more than once, even though the fact that it was GOD on some level was known instantaneously, and made irrefutably true that same time or moment.

I would understand if it was just an overwhelming calm, or just an epiphany on some singular level, or I had been on or dting from drugs. I would sympathise with your argument if hadn't immediately, and eternally changed me on multiple levels. Even if I hadn't been an atheist, then, I would concede.

But those just aren't the case. And weren't the point to begin with.

By the way; I misspoke; my personal experience did have an exceedingly strange and not technically physical effect on the radio of the truck I was driving down the road, making it sorta extraordinary or supernatural in some way I guess.

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10-10-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Personal experience is evidence that you experienced something, but not evidence of exactly what you experienced. People watching a magician might claim their experience showed that the magician actually made someone float in the air, but that isn't really what that experience is evidence for, is it... Consider

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10-10-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 12:01 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  What does that even mean?

Your internal mental states are not evidence of anything external to your mind.
Personal experience is evidence in itself. At very least; for the one who experienced it.

You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.

Quote:Given that said individual was under the influence of no thing, nor in withdrawals or dt, and with no exceptional stressors at that time.

The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.

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10-10-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
I've seen enough X-Files to know that that sounds like an alien encounter, pops.
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10-10-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 12:21 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Personal experience is evidence that you experienced something, but not evidence of exactly what you experienced. People watching a magician might claim their experience showed that the magician actually made someone float in the air, but that isn't really what that experience is evidence for, is it... Consider
Yeah...i wasn't at a magic show, and I'm not one to claim magic is real or card tricks or other illusions.

Consider

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10-10-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 12:01 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Personal experience is evidence in itself. At very least; for the one who experienced it.

You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.

Quote:Given that said individual was under the influence of no thing, nor in withdrawals or dt, and with no exceptional stressors at that time.

The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.
Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary. Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.
I know....what a joke right.....


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10-10-2016, 01:31 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:07 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah...i wasn't at a magic show, and I'm not one to claim magic is real or card tricks or other illusions.
I didn't say you were. It was an example to show why a personal experience isn't evidence even for the person who experienced it. It may be very convincing, but that may only create a strong belief, not knowledge.

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10-10-2016, 01:40 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.


The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.
Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary. Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.
I know....what a joke right.....


Peace

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I have had several occasions of being very tired or lost in thought and driving for miles before coming out of it and having no recollection of driving for those miles. Driving semi-consciously without crashing isn't as unbelievable as it might sound. As for the radio, it was a distraction and might be why you don't remember the driving. Fading can be caused my many things. I don't know why it came back to exactly where it was when the signal returned, but that was probably sheer coincidence that you landed on the same station after fiddling with the knob. The real question is, given the mystery, what brings you to conclude that this was from god specifically? Consider

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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