Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
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10-10-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 12:17 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I understand that.

Obviously not or you would stop contradicting it.

Quote:But we where speaking of the validity of personal experience as evidence.

That's simple. It has no validty.

Quote:I have gone over all other possibilities more than once, even though the fact that it was GOD on some level was known instantaneously, and made irrefutably true that same time or moment.

Facepalm
You have gone over ALL other possibilities? You are an expert in neurology and were able to conclusively rule out any sort of hallucination? You were able to identify and rule out every possible alternative? You are even stupider than I thought.

Quote:By the way; I misspoke; my personal experience did have an exceedingly strange and not technically physical effect on the radio of the truck I was driving down the road, making it sorta extraordinary or supernatural in some way I guess.

You have a witness that confirms that the radio volume changed? You have a recording of the incident? You can rule out that the radio station did not have some technical difficulties? You can demonstrate that the signal wasn't interfered with by something between you and the transmitter. You know that it wasn't a 'technically physical' effect how?

If I thought the supernatural was involved every time the radio acted up, especially while driving, then I'd have to believe in nonsense as well.

(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

That does not seem to be that unbelievable. Auditory hallucinations are possible. More likely, the station had technical problems or something blocked the signal. You can't say that it makes more sense to assume that a god turned off your radio and expect to be taken seriously. Can't he talk over the music?

Quote:What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs?

Maybe you didn't change the knobs. Maybe you did and just ended back close to where they were. Maybe your memory of the event has been altered -- we know that memories are often incorrect and can change over time.

Quote: How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I drive places all the time and have no recollection of the details, especially if I'm thinking about something else. Driving becomes almost automatic.

Quote:I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary.

There is no magnitude and no multiple levels here. You admit to driving without paying close attention which means your mind was wandering. You think back and "remember" what you want to. Nothing about what you describe is better explained by a god than by everyday events.

Quote:Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.

I do think you are divorced from a sound mind but other than that I don't have a clue what you are trying to say.

Quote:I know....what a joke right.....

You would be if it wasn't so sad to see anybody that delusional. You need help.

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10-10-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.


The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.
Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary. Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.
I know....what a joke right.....


Peace

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Experiencing something extraordinary doesn't make it unexplainable. It doesn't make it magic. It doesn't make it divine.

It puts it into the "I don't know" pile.

We can not know, at present, how everything works, how every experience truly happened, or even if our experiences of extraordinary events can be duplicated to discover the truth.

We may never know what really happened on a dark dusty road when a radio fades out, the car looses all power and our chest feels like we're being scanned by aliens. We may even see the ship and little aliens walking toward us.

But here is the thing. We experience a virtual life inside our brains. When we dream, we can experience new cities, other worlds, other people and it all happens inside our brain.

We tell ourselves that our waking experience is 100% real and our dreaming experience is 100% all in our heads, but what if from time to time, we experience some overlapping.

Take some time and think that over.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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10-10-2016, 01:54 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:48 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  We tell ourselves that our waking experience is 100% real and our dreaming experience is 100% all in our heads, but what if from time to time, we experience some overlapping.

Take some time and think that over.

Thumbsup

There's a word for daydreaming for a reason.




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10-10-2016, 04:26 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.


The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.
Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.
I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary.

Hallucinations can be quite complex and memory loss is certainly one of the symptoms.

Quote:Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.

What does that even mean? Seriously - what?

Quote:I know....what a joke right.....

Yes, your conclusion regarding your hallucination is a joke.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-10-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 10:52 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:55 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Yeah, personal experience is not proof. It's belief.
So you don't know the things that you experience first hand to be true?
That must suck.

Like all theists, you read things very literally It's the interpretation of one's personal experience that ultimately proves to be true or untrue. We can certainly experience something that seems very real at the time, but later on proves to be false. Think of the number of times people roll up to their local hospital ER suffering from a suspected heart attack, only to have its triaged as gastric reflux—identical symptoms, different cause.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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10-10-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  You persist in error. Go look up the meaning of 'evidence' because you clearly do not understand it.


The brain can do it all on its own. You don't seem to have a clue about how it works.
Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary. Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.
I know....what a joke right.....


Peace

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LOL! Broke radio = gawd. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-10-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:31 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 01:07 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah...i wasn't at a magic show, and I'm not one to claim magic is real or card tricks or other illusions.
I didn't say you were. It was an example to show why a personal experience isn't evidence even for the person who experienced it. It may be very convincing, but that may only create a strong belief, not knowledge.
So, do we not learn from experience? And is what is learned not knowledge?

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10-10-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 06:29 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 01:31 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I didn't say you were. It was an example to show why a personal experience isn't evidence even for the person who experienced it. It may be very convincing, but that may only create a strong belief, not knowledge.
So, do we not learn from experience? And is what is learned not knowledge?

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Experience contributes to knowledge best when combined with other experiences and actual evidence that together give a multi-point frame of reference. And sometimes what is learned is that the initial impression was simply wrong.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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10-10-2016, 07:03 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Impulse,

I agree that not having a recollection of driving on a common road is no bizarre thing. But I also know myself. Even now, years later, if I don't pay attention, it gets dangerous quick, even on familiar roads.

The radio wasn't a distraction. Everything else that happened is what kept my mind off of the road. The radio was more like a before and after thing. The station didn't get static or fade in and out from interference. There was no audible interference. The chances of me turning analog knobs to the same volume and sound level while not being able to here the radio at all are very slim.

So some want to say I was experiencing some sort of hallucination or crazy spell or something, and that interference caused radio malfunctions at the same time. That isn't too likely either. No one has even given an opinion on what could have caused the delusion. I was sober and not stressed. I had been clean for some time.

So what could cause an analog radio to smoothly fade out to nothing, still have power, and fade back in in the same manner minutes after the knobs had been adjusted. I've dealt with interference and driving out of range of a station before, but that wasn't the case as this was a station I regularly listened to after work. There weren't many to choose from there. I've even heard people's partial phone conversations come through the radio, but again, this wasn't static or interference. It was as if the volume slowly and evenly went down, and when things settled it came back up.

Since that day I do not believe in coincidence and there is no evidence that coincidences or chance are real.

Me knowing it was GOD in some form had nothing to do with the radio. When all my burdens and pain and hatred instantly left me immediately after the radio faded out, and I was filled with joy and peace that I had never even known possible, let alone experienced before, I began thanking GOD with tears running down my face. There was never any question as to what produced the elation, even before things started being presented to me. After that point, if I needed proof that it was GOD, which I did not, the the nature of the things that came into my mind where that proof. It is hard to pinpoint why I just new it was GOD. It is hard to describe because things weren't exactly audible or spoken, but it was understood that it was GOD. Even if I hadn't grasped it on an intellectual level, my subconscious did as I was crying like a baby. I never knew what tears of joy were. I didn't really think it was a real thing. But they are.

Before this happened I was a very emotionally dead person for the most part. I do not recall ever out right crying after childhood... Until that moment as a 30 year old man.

Being an atheist; I wouldn't have naturally drawn the conclusion that it was GOD. But as I said, it was irrefutable, and if you can't tell from my posts; I'm pretty hard headed. If there was an explanation needed, then I would have found one that matched. Even though it wasn't needed to me, I still looked into things that it could have been. But the descriptors and prerequisites won't match at all in most cases.

What other thing would it have been in your opinion?

I didn't mean to be short with your earlier either, I apologize; I get that way at times from dealing with others, and didn't mean to put you in the same category as them. Still not an excuse and I do apologise.

I value your opinion and look forward to your reply.

Peace


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10-10-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Unfogged,

It does not make more sense to assume that I had a breakdown of some sort while the radio experienced an anomaly, and then when the breakdown ended (which had positive effects and not negative like you would expect from a breakdown) the radio anomaly fixed itself in perfect timing.

Sorry, your skepticism is affecting your rationale.

Peace

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