Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
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10-10-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 01:48 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 01:13 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yes the brain can make the radio in a vehicle fade to nothing and even when the same brain realizes that something is up with the radio and causes the body to adjust the knobs to no avail then what?

What about when it was all over and the radio faded back in to how and where it was even though my brain knows that it caused my body to adjust the knobs? How bout the fact that all this took place while I was driving down the road, but I didn't crash or run off the road or even recall driving while it was happening.

I'm quite aware that the brain can trick you. But the likelihood of it happening on such a magnitude on so many levels alone makes it a little extraordinary. Being of divorce and sound mind also throws your opinion out the window.
I know....what a joke right.....


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Experiencing something extraordinary doesn't make it unexplainable. It doesn't make it magic. It doesn't make it divine.

It puts it into the "I don't know" pile.

We can not know, at present, how everything works, how every experience truly happened, or even if our experiences of extraordinary events can be duplicated to discover the truth.

We may never know what really happened on a dark dusty road when a radio fades out, the car looses all power and our chest feels like we're being scanned by aliens. We may even see the ship and little aliens walking toward us.

But here is the thing. We experience a virtual life inside our brains. When we dream, we can experience new cities, other worlds, other people and it all happens inside our brain.

We tell ourselves that our waking experience is 100% real and our dreaming experience is 100% all in our heads, but what if from time to time, we experience some overlapping.

Take some time and think that over.
That sounded deep and all, but I don't generally dream. Or some would say that I don't remember dreaming. I believe dreams to be an attempt by our mind to comprehend and piece together different aspect of our sleeping conscious. It can be comprised of short term memory, long term memory, and emotions or stresses, and physical stimuli. Your brain takes these different inputs and attempts to make sense of them forming dreams. It is also my belief that if one doesn't dream often that they aren't leading an exciting enough life. In other words there are little memory's or other things to make dreams of a lasting impact.

Anyway. Those are things I think, or believe, not things I know.

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10-10-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Chas,

I never said hallucinations couldn't be complex.

It was supposed to read "being of sober and sound mind"

I spelt sober as sobor and somehow it auto corrected to divorce.

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10-10-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 05:20 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 10:52 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So you don't know the things that you experience first hand to be true?
That must suck.

Like all theists, you read things very literally It's the interpretation of one's personal experience that ultimately proves to be true or untrue. We can certainly experience something that seems very real at the time, but later on proves to be false. Think of the number of times people roll up to their local hospital ER suffering from a suspected heart attack, only to have its triaged as gastric reflux—identical symptoms, different cause.
Good point.

So what causes what I have described in the sober stress free mind and affects radios in a strange manner?

Oh yeah, who said something about auditory hallucinations? Generally they are auditory as in they sound like sound, not the lack there of. Even when one has a hallucination of silence it is generally associated with pressure in the ear.

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10-10-2016, 07:32 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 07:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Impulse,

I agree that not having a recollection of driving on a common road is no bizarre thing. But I also know myself. Even now, years later, if I don't pay attention, it gets dangerous quick, even on familiar roads.

The radio wasn't a distraction. Everything else that happened is what kept my mind off of the road. The radio was more like a before and after thing. The station didn't get static or fade in and out from interference. There was no audible interference. The chances of me turning analog knobs to the same volume and sound level while not being able to here the radio at all are very slim.

So some want to say I was experiencing some sort of hallucination or crazy spell or something, and that interference caused radio malfunctions at the same time. That isn't too likely either. No one has even given an opinion on what could have caused the delusion. I was sober and not stressed. I had been clean for some time.

So what could cause an analog radio to smoothly fade out to nothing, still have power, and fade back in in the same manner minutes after the knobs had been adjusted. I've dealt with interference and driving out of range of a station before, but that wasn't the case as this was a station I regularly listened to after work. There weren't many to choose from there. I've even heard people's partial phone conversations come through the radio, but again, this wasn't static or interference. It was as if the volume slowly and evenly went down, and when things settled it came back up.

Since that day I do not believe in coincidence and there is no evidence that coincidences or chance are real.

Me knowing it was GOD in some form had nothing to do with the radio. When all my burdens and pain and hatred instantly left me immediately after the radio faded out, and I was filled with joy and peace that I had never even known possible, let alone experienced before, I began thanking GOD with tears running down my face. There was never any question as to what produced the elation, even before things started being presented to me. After that point, if I needed proof that it was GOD, which I did not, the the nature of the things that came into my mind where that proof. It is hard to pinpoint why I just new it was GOD. It is hard to describe because things weren't exactly audible or spoken, but it was understood that it was GOD. Even if I hadn't grasped it on an intellectual level, my subconscious did as I was crying like a baby. I never knew what tears of joy were. I didn't really think it was a real thing. But they are.

Before this happened I was a very emotionally dead person for the most part. I do not recall ever out right crying after childhood... Until that moment as a 30 year old man.

Being an atheist; I wouldn't have naturally drawn the conclusion that it was GOD. But as I said, it was irrefutable, and if you can't tell from my posts; I'm pretty hard headed. If there was an explanation needed, then I would have found one that matched. Even though it wasn't needed to me, I still looked into things that it could have been. But the descriptors and prerequisites won't match at all in most cases.

What other thing would it have been in your opinion?

I didn't mean to be short with your earlier either, I apologize; I get that way at times from dealing with others, and didn't mean to put you in the same category as them. Still not an excuse and I do apologise.

I value your opinion and look forward to your reply.

Peace


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Sounds like you had a temporary psychological meltdown, of some sort, after years of suppressed emotions.
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10-10-2016, 07:33 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 06:59 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 06:29 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  So, do we not learn from experience? And is what is learned not knowledge?

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Experience contributes to knowledge best when combined with other experiences and actual evidence that together give a multi-point frame of reference. And sometimes what is learned is that the initial impression was simply wrong.
But I have examined the scenario for years and will quickly and happily admit to actually having auditory hallucinations before and still to this day due to ear problems mostly, but I'm not talking about a damn sound. I'm speaking of an ever life altering experience...not a sound, not a broke radio that fixed itself by coincidence.

A big instant unnerving change that came from outside of myself somehow.

An auditory hallucination might scare someone who isn't used to it, but it isn't going to make them a wholly different person. An auditory hallucination is generally a simple sound... Not words, not understanding, not memories that had been long gone shown in a wholly different light, not causal of revelations and understanding that have to do with self and others in general.

It was not a hallucination. If it was, then I've never read of one similar, and it doesn't fit what I know about hallucinations. I agree that hallucinations can seem real though. I have witnessed such after extensive sleep deprivation.

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10-10-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Meltdowns (or breakdowns. whatever they're called. I'm no expert) aren't always negative. I burst into tears like a baby when my dog died. I hadn't cried since I was a little kid, and it actually felt really good afterwards. Only lasted 5 minutes or less, but it was a huge relief afterwards. I've always tried to keep my emotions in check and have no doubt suppressed a lot of them.
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10-10-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 07:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 06:59 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Experience contributes to knowledge best when combined with other experiences and actual evidence that together give a multi-point frame of reference. And sometimes what is learned is that the initial impression was simply wrong.
But I have examined the scenario for years and will quickly and happily admit to actually having auditory hallucinations before and still to this day due to ear problems mostly, but I'm not talking about a damn sound. I'm speaking of an ever life altering experience...not a sound, not a broke radio that fixed itself by coincidence.

A big instant unnerving change that came from outside of myself somehow.

An auditory hallucination might scare someone who isn't used to it, but it isn't going to make them a wholly different person. An auditory hallucination is generally a simple sound... Not words, not understanding, not memories that had been long gone shown in a wholly different light, not causal of revelations and understanding that have to do with self and others in general.

It was not a hallucination. If it was, then I've never read of one similar, and it doesn't fit what I know about hallucinations. I agree that hallucinations can seem real though. I have witnessed such after extensive sleep deprivation.

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Quote:In layman's terms, hallucinations involve hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling and even tasting things that are not real.
However, auditory hallucinations (hearing voices or other sounds that have no physical source) are the most common type.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-10-2016, 08:23 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 07:32 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 07:03 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Impulse,

I agree that not having a recollection of driving on a common road is no bizarre thing. But I also know myself. Even now, years later, if I don't pay attention, it gets dangerous quick, even on familiar roads.

The radio wasn't a distraction. Everything else that happened is what kept my mind off of the road. The radio was more like a before and after thing. The station didn't get static or fade in and out from interference. There was no audible interference. The chances of me turning analog knobs to the same volume and sound level while not being able to here the radio at all are very slim.

So some want to say I was experiencing some sort of hallucination or crazy spell or something, and that interference caused radio malfunctions at the same time. That isn't too likely either. No one has even given an opinion on what could have caused the delusion. I was sober and not stressed. I had been clean for some time.

So what could cause an analog radio to smoothly fade out to nothing, still have power, and fade back in in the same manner minutes after the knobs had been adjusted. I've dealt with interference and driving out of range of a station before, but that wasn't the case as this was a station I regularly listened to after work. There weren't many to choose from there. I've even heard people's partial phone conversations come through the radio, but again, this wasn't static or interference. It was as if the volume slowly and evenly went down, and when things settled it came back up.

Since that day I do not believe in coincidence and there is no evidence that coincidences or chance are real.

Me knowing it was GOD in some form had nothing to do with the radio. When all my burdens and pain and hatred instantly left me immediately after the radio faded out, and I was filled with joy and peace that I had never even known possible, let alone experienced before, I began thanking GOD with tears running down my face. There was never any question as to what produced the elation, even before things started being presented to me. After that point, if I needed proof that it was GOD, which I did not, the the nature of the things that came into my mind where that proof. It is hard to pinpoint why I just new it was GOD. It is hard to describe because things weren't exactly audible or spoken, but it was understood that it was GOD. Even if I hadn't grasped it on an intellectual level, my subconscious did as I was crying like a baby. I never knew what tears of joy were. I didn't really think it was a real thing. But they are.

Before this happened I was a very emotionally dead person for the most part. I do not recall ever out right crying after childhood... Until that moment as a 30 year old man.

Being an atheist; I wouldn't have naturally drawn the conclusion that it was GOD. But as I said, it was irrefutable, and if you can't tell from my posts; I'm pretty hard headed. If there was an explanation needed, then I would have found one that matched. Even though it wasn't needed to me, I still looked into things that it could have been. But the descriptors and prerequisites won't match at all in most cases.

What other thing would it have been in your opinion?

I didn't mean to be short with your earlier either, I apologize; I get that way at times from dealing with others, and didn't mean to put you in the same category as them. Still not an excuse and I do apologise.

I value your opinion and look forward to your reply.

Peace


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Sounds like you had a temporary psychological meltdown, of some sort, after years of suppressed emotions.
Yeah I contemplated that myself, more than once. But there were no stresses and what happened helped me, unlike a breakdown which makes you less functional. The symptoms don't match either.


Mental breakdown (also known as a nervous breakdown) is a general term for an acute, time-limited mental disorder that manifests primarily as severe stress-induced depression,anxiety, or dissociation in a previously functional individual, to the extent that they are no longer able to function on a day-to-day basis until the disorder is resolved. A nervous breakdown is defined by its temporary nature, and often closely tied to psychologicalburnout, severe overwork, sleep deprivation, and similar stressors, which may combine to temporarily overwhelm an individual with otherwise sound mental functions.


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10-10-2016, 08:27 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 07:36 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  Meltdowns (or breakdowns. whatever they're called. I'm no expert) aren't always negative. I burst into tears like a baby when my dog died. I hadn't cried since I was a little kid, and it actually felt really good afterwards. Only lasted 5 minutes or less, but it was a huge relief afterwards. I've always tried to keep my emotions in check and have no doubt suppressed a lot of them.
Yes, I agree that the release of built up emotions can be a good thing. But what I experienced wasn't simply a build up of emotions culminating to a point. That would explain the tears and some of the peace perhaps, not the overwhelming joy, or elation or gratitude which actually caused the tears. Not the other way around.



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10-10-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 07:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 07:33 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  But I have examined the scenario for years and will quickly and happily admit to actually having auditory hallucinations before and still to this day due to ear problems mostly, but I'm not talking about a damn sound. I'm speaking of an ever life altering experience...not a sound, not a broke radio that fixed itself by coincidence.

A big instant unnerving change that came from outside of myself somehow.

An auditory hallucination might scare someone who isn't used to it, but it isn't going to make them a wholly different person. An auditory hallucination is generally a simple sound... Not words, not understanding, not memories that had been long gone shown in a wholly different light, not causal of revelations and understanding that have to do with self and others in general.

It was not a hallucination. If it was, then I've never read of one similar, and it doesn't fit what I know about hallucinations. I agree that hallucinations can seem real though. I have witnessed such after extensive sleep deprivation.

Peace

Peace

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Quote:In layman's terms, hallucinations involve hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling and even tasting things that are not real.
However, auditory hallucinations (hearing voices or other sounds that have no physical source) are the most common type.
I agree that auditory hallucinations are the most common.

What is your point? An auditory hallucinations does no not explain what happened as they are generally simple sounds such as bells or ringing or whistling or buzzing type sounds. Hearing actual audible voices is a sign of a form of schizophrenia, and isn't related as I didn't actually hear any voices per say. That also doesn't explain the elation or the revelations or the radio.



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