Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-10-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 08:39 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Sure, sure

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

So if your memory is this poor, why should anyone put any credence into anything you claim based from that?
I'm not asking anyone to place credence in my words... and haven't.

Each must find out for themselves.

I never said I had a good memory. My short term memory Is shot. But I haven't forgotten what happened then. And I will not.

Irrelevant or insignificant things tend to slip away. In fact many memories that I had completely forgotten came back into mind from a different perspective during that experience.

My point is that such a life altering event tends to stick with you.

My other point, again, is that I expect nothing from anyone, but simply hope that they might find how to be honest with themselves and in doing so find the truth for themselves. Regardless of what they perceive that truth to be.

My experience nor the attempted explanation there of is in no way to be responsible for the beliefs of another.

All I can do is explain it as well as I can.

The rest is up to the individual.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-10-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 07:53 AM)Impulse Wrote:  No matter how much you think you "know" it was God, the fact remains that you decided it was God. Think of it this way. Imagine a world where the concept of God never existed, was never discussed, or even imagined. Yet, in reality, a God was out there that no one knew anything about. If that God made its presence known to you in the way that you described, you would not have concluded it was God, because no such concept would have been preconceived in your mind. You simply wouldn't have known what that experience was.

Back to this reality, what you experienced was simply something you couldn't explain - no more and no less - and you interpreted that experience as a sign or communication from God because the concept of God was already known to you and you couldn't find an alternative more plausible explanation. But if you have never met or seen God, how would you know anything about God to "know" this experience was God? You wouldn't. This experience in some way fit your preconception about God and therefore you decided at some level (maybe even unconsciously) that this was from God.
I see what you are saying. And perhaps this is the case. But it would have happened instantly with no noticed thought process.

The thing is that my preconception of God other than that it didn't exist were non existent.

I had no clue as to the nature of GOD as it pertains to man.

I did not know of mercy, or benevolence and surely had no clue that all was ordained or that God had been wholly aware of the happenings of my life prior to my very conception.

These things I hadn't heard of. Unlike many here, I did not study about what I didn't believe in and had very little contact with the religious. None really that spoke of the attributes of GOD.

If I had a mold for God to fit into then yes.

But again this simply wasn't the case.

All I had, at some previous point, months before, was I small inkling of hope.

The rest was completely new to me.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

All based from your memory. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-10-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 07:53 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Imagine a world where the concept of God never existed, was never discussed, or even imagined. Yet, in reality, a God was out there that no one knew anything about. If that God made its presence known to you in the way that you described, you would not have concluded it was God, because no such concept would have been preconceived in your mind. You simply wouldn't have known what that experience was.

I want to second this because I think you hit the nail on the head. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Full Circle's post
11-10-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 06:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  That isn't accurate.

Being a solitary atheist, I hadn't heard scripture. Sure I had heard of GOD. Haven't you?

The point, O dense one, is that you had heard scripture. You'd heard "thous shalt not steal" and "Suffer the little ones to come unto me" and many, many other bits of scripture. It's ubiquitous in the culture and to say you had not heard it is just denying reality. Not that you aren't good at that.

Quote:You are an atheist right? And as an atheist, do you hold around looking to link things to the possibility of God? I bet not. The same could have been said of me at that time.

I did not say you were looking to link things to a god. I said it's more likely that when you had an unexplained experience you latched onto the the idea of god because that's the easy out. I don't find it a bit surprising that somebody would prefer to believe it was a god than to admit that they had a mental lapse. I just don't think it is a reasonable explanation.

Quote:I didn't think about what was happening while it was happening and conclude by my my own thought that it was God.

So you thought about it after and concluded by your own thought that it was god.

(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I had no clue as to the nature of GOD as it pertains to man.

I did not know of mercy, or benevolence and surely had no clue that all was ordained or that God had been wholly aware of the happenings of my life prior to my very conception.

These things I hadn't heard of. Unlike many here, I did not study about what I didn't believe in and had very little contact with the religious. None really that spoke of the attributes of GOD.

I think you seriously underestimate how much you absorb from the general culture. You may not have paid much attention to it but that isn't all that important. It may explain why your concept is not entirely aligned with the common view.

Quote:All I had, at some previous point, months before, was I small inkling of hope.

Hope? That there might be a god or an afterlife or something along those lines? Then you did know about the common claims and had thought about it "to some extent". It sounds to me like you are either completely dishonest about your thinking or are unable or unwilling to actually examine your thinking.

Quote:The rest was completely new to me.

You combined half-remembered religious claims with your own delusion. Nothing to see here.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
11-10-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 09:13 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 06:29 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  That isn't accurate.

Being a solitary atheist, I hadn't heard scripture. Sure I had heard of GOD. Haven't you?

The point, O dense one, is that you had heard scripture. You'd heard "thous shalt not steal" and "Suffer the little ones to come unto me" and many, many other bits of scripture. It's ubiquitous in the culture and to say you had not heard it is just denying reality. Not that you aren't good at that.

Quote:You are an atheist right? And as an atheist, do you hold around looking to link things to the possibility of God? I bet not. The same could have been said of me at that time.

I did not say you were looking to link things to a god. I said it's more likely that when you had an unexplained experience you latched onto the the idea of god because that's the easy out. I don't find it a bit surprising that somebody would prefer to believe it was a god than to admit that they had a mental lapse. I just don't think it is a reasonable explanation.

Quote:I didn't think about what was happening while it was happening and conclude by my my own thought that it was God.

So you thought about it after and concluded by your own thought that it was god.

(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I had no clue as to the nature of GOD as it pertains to man.

I did not know of mercy, or benevolence and surely had no clue that all was ordained or that God had been wholly aware of the happenings of my life prior to my very conception.

These things I hadn't heard of. Unlike many here, I did not study about what I didn't believe in and had very little contact with the religious. None really that spoke of the attributes of GOD.

I think you seriously underestimate how much you absorb from the general culture. You may not have paid much attention to it but that isn't all that important. It may explain why your concept is not entirely aligned with the common view.

Quote:All I had, at some previous point, months before, was I small inkling of hope.

Hope? That there might be a god or an afterlife or something along those lines? Then you did know about the common claims and had thought about it "to some extent". It sounds to me like you are either completely dishonest about your thinking or are unable or unwilling to actually examine your thinking.

Quote:The rest was completely new to me.

You combined half-remembered religious claims with your own delusion. Nothing to see here.

He also has selective memory, it's apparent he's remembering things that support his beliefs and has long forgotten those things that don't.

Count the hits but not the misses.....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
11-10-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I see what you are saying. And perhaps this is the case. But it would have happened instantly with no noticed thought process.

The thing is that my preconception of God other than that it didn't exist were non existent.
But surely you had some concept of God even if you didn't believe in one yourself. Your concept would have been what God is to others.

(11-10-2016 08:46 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I had no clue as to the nature of GOD as it pertains to man.

I did not know of mercy, or benevolence and surely had no clue that all was ordained or that God had been wholly aware of the happenings of my life prior to my very conception.

These things I hadn't heard of. Unlike many here, I did not study about what I didn't believe in and had very little contact with the religious. None really that spoke of the attributes of GOD.

If I had a mold for God to fit into then yes.
Again, the mold is whatever you knew about the concept of God even though you didn't believe. As for the things you did not know, I'm not convinced you knew those immediately either. It may seem like that now looking back, but maybe you knew less then than you now think and learned more along the way after you took an interest.

If it helps you any, I had personal experiences in my past where I was positive at the time they could not be possible without at least the supernatural being true at some level. There were 3 instances of seeing into the future (more or less). Each manifested when an event happened that I "remembered" having previously dreamed. This was not deja vu because it wasn't remembering it happening before, it was remembering having dreamed it; and I knew exactly when I had dreamed each one. On one of those occasions, I was even able to say what would happen next because I "remembered" that too from my dream. So how convincing is that? Being able to say what will happen before it happens? It was VERY convincing to me at the time. However, I am now certain that my brain was playing tricks on me. It was simply storing the event in memory and recalling it at the same time in a way that gave the illusion of "remembering" it from a dream. As for knowing what would happen next, the "next" was also a logical conclusion that could be deduced from the circumstances and, when I was willing to be more honest with myself later, I realized that is how I really had known. But when these happened, I was still a theist so the idea of seeing into the future being possible didn't seem ridiculous and having it "happen to me" was wonderful confirmation of my belief in supernatural things. So I had readily accepted the experiences as evidence. And I really didn't know I was being dishonest with myself.

In addition, my former beliefs came more from needs than from anything else. It sounds like you may have similar needs with the difficulties you have had in your life. Food for thought.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Impulse's post
11-10-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 09:18 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 09:13 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You combined half-remembered religious claims with your own delusion. Nothing to see here.

He also has selective memory, it's apparent he's remembering things that support his beliefs and has long forgotten those things that don't.

Count the hits but not the misses.....

Yup, I had never considered Survivorship Bias to explain human memory, I had only seen it used in explaining investment return in mutual funds.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...s-reality/

and

"Survivorship bias, or survival bias, is the logical error of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that did not because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways.”

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
11-10-2016, 01:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2016 01:23 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
Video killed the Radio Star.

This conversation with pops got me to thinking. Have you all noticed that god always uses things in our everyday lives to contact us? For a while there it was burning bushes. I think what would have been cool as shit is if god had pooped out a radio out of his omni ass and talked to Moses with it. Yes

Apparently he used a radio to contact pops long after radio was invented. I have no doubt that there are people today who swear that god has contacted them via their smart phone. Imagine if god had pooped out a smart phone before phones had been invented, powerful stuff that would have been but alas this never happened.

My takeaway is that god is ALWAYS limited by man’s imagination. This says it all I think.

George Carlin had a bit on drunk rednecks living in trailers out in the woods who were always the ones kidnapped and probed by aliens. He said if they wanted to be believed they needed to steal some doodad from the ship and bring it back to Earth, but this has never happened. Consider Same with god claims, we just never have incontrovertible proof that what is being claimed is backed up by hard evidence. I wonder why that is.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Full Circle's post
11-10-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 01:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Video killed the Radio Star.

This conversation with pops got me to thinking. Have you all noticed that god always uses things in our everyday lives to contact us? For a while there it was burning bushes. I think what would have been cool as shit is if god had pooped out a radio out of his omni ass and talk to Moses with it. Yes

Apparently he used a radio to contact pops long after radio was invented. I have no doubt that there are people today who swear that god has contacted them via their smart phone. Imagine if god had pooped out a smart phone before phones had been invented, powerful stuff that would have been but alas this never happened.

My takeaway is that god is ALWAYS limited by man’s imagination. This says it all I think.

George Carlin had a bit on drunk rednecks living in trailers out in the woods who were always the ones kidnapped and probed by aliens. He said if they wanted to be believed they needed to steal some doodad from the ship and bring it back to Earth, but this has never happened. Consider Same with god claims, we just never have incontrovertible proof that what is being claimed is backed up by hard evidence. I wonder why that is.

On a related note, the messages people get from their gods tend to be like the ones others get from those aliens... we need to work together, we need to love one another, etc. They never come back with "here's how to travel faster than light" or "here's how to generate clean energy" or "here's the GPS coordinates of the lost ark of the covenant". There's never anything people could not have known or guessed without divine intervention.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
11-10-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(11-10-2016 01:20 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 01:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Video killed the Radio Star.

This conversation with pops got me to thinking. Have you all noticed that god always uses things in our everyday lives to contact us? For a while there it was burning bushes. I think what would have been cool as shit is if god had pooped out a radio out of his omni ass and talk to Moses with it. Yes

Apparently he used a radio to contact pops long after radio was invented. I have no doubt that there are people today who swear that god has contacted them via their smart phone. Imagine if god had pooped out a smart phone before phones had been invented, powerful stuff that would have been but alas this never happened.

My takeaway is that god is ALWAYS limited by man’s imagination. This says it all I think.

George Carlin had a bit on drunk rednecks living in trailers out in the woods who were always the ones kidnapped and probed by aliens. He said if they wanted to be believed they needed to steal some doodad from the ship and bring it back to Earth, but this has never happened. Consider Same with god claims, we just never have incontrovertible proof that what is being claimed is backed up by hard evidence. I wonder why that is.

On a related note, the messages people get from their gods tend to be like the ones others get from those aliens... we need to work together, we need to love one another, etc. They never come back with "here's how to travel faster than light" or "here's how to generate clean energy" or "here's the GPS coordinates of the lost ark of the covenant". There's never anything people could not have known or guessed without divine intervention.

Exactamudo. Now if pops woke up from a dream and in that dream he saw an equation that he writes down when he awakes. He takes it to the local university and when examined by one of the physics professors his jaw drops and immediately calls NASA. The NASA geeks run the equation and it turns out that the equation shows how to create cold fusion. Now that would make me stop and rethink what is possible.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Full Circle's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: