Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
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10-10-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 06:58 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 06:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Yes, it does. People believe all kinds of strange things. If they can't back up their beliefs with demonstrable, testable evidence then there is no justification for accepting their claims.


Your case IS NOT EVIDENCE. Even if I accept what you claim all it means it that you had an experience that you can't explain. You have NO justification for claiming that any sort of supernatural cause was involved. You have NO justification for claiming that you know anything about the attributes of some supernatural cause. You have NOTHING except a story about a strange experience.


The argument from popularity remains a fallacy you matter how many times it is presented. Your own faith, from everything you have said, does appear to be a product of gullibility. That is certainly a more reasonable assumption than that you were actually contacted by a god and that it gave you special knowledge. We know people have delusions and we know they find them convincing. We do not know that any god ever existed or interacted with anybody.


Whether you were an atheist or not is irrelevant. You believe in a god now and you have provided no evidence to support that belief. Your personal experience may have convinced you but it can't possibly be evidence for anybody else. I don't see how it could be evidence for you either but, then again, based on your posts I do think that you are more than a bit daft.


No, it really isn't. You can make no causal connection between your experience and the actual reason for it. You have jumped to a wholly unwarranted conclusion and are too thick to understand that you have no justification for doing so.


The argument from popularity remains a fallacy. The "negating self" and "selfless conscious" crap is meaningless woo-speak. There is no evidence of any objective morality or any creative force/power/energy/spirit. You continue to use all these vague descriptions of stuff you can't explain and except people to take you seriously. You need help.


No, there really isn't. You plug "god" into everything you see because that's the easy answer. If you think there is evidence of a god in anything please point out the evidence and explain how we can verify that it supports the conclusion that a god actually exists and isn't just a huge argument from ignorance.
Bs.

This is what I'm talking about.

You say you don't limit evidence, but then limit it.


Whatever.

Didn't read the rest.

There is no point.

Stop deceiving yourself for just a minute



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You do not understand what evidence is. You are making a fool of yourself.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-10-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Read this slowly Pops... it is not 'known as a surety'. It is 'believed as a surety'. It is 'asserted as a surety'. It is not known.

The argument from popularity remains a fallacy no matter how often you repeat it or how much you stomp your feet and block your ears. Try to let just a touch of reason into that osmium block you have in your head.


I will admit anything for which there is actual evidence. Unevidenced claims and bullshit speculation is treated with the contempt it deserves.
It is known. Perhaps only in part by many, and in inexpressible terms too, but it is known.



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No. It is believed. Belief is not knowledge.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-10-2016, 09:15 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Read this slowly Pops... it is not 'known as a surety'. It is 'believed as a surety'. It is 'asserted as a surety'. It is not known.

The argument from popularity remains a fallacy no matter how often you repeat it or how much you stomp your feet and block your ears. Try to let just a touch of reason into that osmium block you have in your head.


I will admit anything for which there is actual evidence. Unevidenced claims and bullshit speculation is treated with the contempt it deserves.
It is known. Perhaps only in part by many, and in inexpressible terms too, but it is known.
Since you are certain that it is known, then you must also be aware of how it is known. Something can't be known without evidence, so what is your evidence? Anything "known" without evidence is simply a belief no matter how strong the belief.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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10-10-2016, 09:28 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:26 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  [Image: 29942216140_cb504f572f_z.jpg]

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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10-10-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Read this slowly Pops... it is not 'known as a surety'. It is 'believed as a surety'. It is 'asserted as a surety'. It is not known.

The argument from popularity remains a fallacy no matter how often you repeat it or how much you stomp your feet and block your ears. Try to let just a touch of reason into that osmium block you have in your head.


I will admit anything for which there is actual evidence. Unevidenced claims and bullshit speculation is treated with the contempt it deserves.
It is known. Perhaps only in part by many, and in inexpressible terms too, but it is known.

You mean like Martians or Bigfoot?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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10-10-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:15 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It is known. Perhaps only in part by many, and in inexpressible terms too, but it is known.
Since you are certain that it is known, then you must also be aware of how it is known. Something can't be known without evidence, so what is your evidence? Anything "known" without evidence is simply a belief no matter how strong the belief.
I am aware of how it is known. For many it would have indeed been because of indoctrination in part. But not for all. And even those that where indoctrinated by man; they aren't all simply gullible or scared into belief. It is based on what they know on some level.

As for me; I know without any doubt what so ever that there is a GOD. It was proven to me personally. It is irrefutable to me personally. Yet I cannot prove it using empirical evidence. All I have is my testimony and the fact that it was received to me prior to ever reading any sort of scripture yet aligns perfectly with scripture in most cases is further proof for me if I needed any. As a sort of result to what took place I wrote things down that sound as if they were taken out of some religious moral text, but I had never read such. I can describe by experience to the best of my ability, but that isn't hard proof either as it wasn't recorded and is only my word.

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10-10-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:38 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-10-2016 09:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It is known. Perhaps only in part by many, and in inexpressible terms too, but it is known.

You mean like Martians or Bigfoot?
No not really; Martians and Bigfoot have little to do with objective morality or the conscience or truth.



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10-10-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  As for me; I know without any doubt what so ever that there is a GOD. It was proven to me personally. It is irrefutable to me personally. Yet I cannot prove it using empirical evidence. All I have is my testimony and the fact that it was received to me prior to ever reading any sort of scripture yet aligns perfectly with scripture in most cases is further proof for me if I needed any. As a sort of result to what took place I wrote things down that sound as if they were taken out of some religious moral text, but I had never read such. I can describe by experience to the best of my ability, but that isn't hard proof either as it wasn't recorded and is only my word.
Yeah, personal experience is not proof. It's belief.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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10-10-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(10-10-2016 09:44 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No not really; Martians and Bigfoot have little to do with objective morality or the conscience or truth.

My personal experience with a Martian bigfoot provided me with irrefutable proof that there is no objective morality. I know for a fact that that is true even though I can provide no empirical evidence to support it. After the experience I wrote down stuff that sounded like anything you'd see on one of those bigfoot hunter or ancient aliens shows. There's no explanation of how I, a human, could come up with something that sounded a lot like other stuff I'd heard before and was previously written by other humans. The parts of the shows that agree with me are more evidence and the parts that don't show that human greed has corrupted the truth. Thousands, maybe millions of people believe in aliens or bigfoot and that's got to mean something. They are all connecting to the inner truth that lets them know that these things exist. If you remove the self and deny other, more mundane explanations, you would see the truth. Stop limiting yourself and just accept that people can know about aliens and bigfoot from inner conviction and fallacious arguments.

Yes, Pops, that's what you sound like.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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10-10-2016, 10:04 AM
RE: Arguments against religion, not to defend atheism?
(09-10-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  [...] Atheism is a claim as well though, and too could be used to prove theists wrong, but similarly can't be proven.

Nope. Atheism is a self-evidential "claim". Although it's more appropriate to define it as a tenet. Theism is asserted or maintained—erroneously—as a matter of fact.

The atheist has no need to prove that gods or unicorns or leprechauns don't exist, whereas the theist must prove his/her god exists. You've made the claim that gods exist—it's now up to you to prove it.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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