Arguments agaisnt Materialism
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01-03-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(01-03-2017 08:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If "science works", then woo (dualism) is false.
Science and math never ever need to, nor can they ever, by definition, have a [woo] term used to create a model.

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01-03-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(01-03-2017 08:57 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(01-03-2017 08:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If "science works", then woo (dualism) is false.
Science and math never ever need to, nor can they ever, by definition, have a [woo] term used to create a model.

Dualism is not at all harmed by science. And dualism isn't "woo". It's a metaphysical position.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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01-03-2017, 09:41 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(01-03-2017 09:27 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Dualism is not at all harmed by science. And dualism isn't "woo". It's a metaphysical position.

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

In theory, "dualism" could denote, say, a view that matter and the forces acting upon it - say, electromagnetism - should be considered fundamentally separate. Which is a valid position to take, if not particularly useful, and rather pointless. In the same way, any given multiple-ism position could be valid, but since any non-monist position is necessarily more complicated than a monist one without actually gaining any sort of practical use, most people tend towards monism for simplicity's sake.

In practice, however, "dualism" actually denotes a collection of nonsensical claims like the existence of a soul, that minds are not brain function, ghosts being real, that morality is not subjective, and so on. It is very much woo.

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01-03-2017, 09:50 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(01-03-2017 09:27 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(01-03-2017 08:57 AM)unfogged Wrote:  

Dualism is not at all harmed by science. And dualism isn't "woo". It's a metaphysical position.

There is no evidence for Dualism. Not one shred. You have none.
Of course Dualism could not be harmed by science.
It's irrelevant, unnecessary, and incoherent.
Metaphysical positions are woo. Metaphysics is a hold-over from ancient days.

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01-03-2017, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2017 03:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
If one is going to invoke the "other", there is no reason why it has to be limited to one other. It could be Tripleism, Quadrupleism, or an infinite number or variety of others. It's useless bullshit, (and always an argument from ignorance).

And BTW, an appeal to a legitimate authority in their own field of expertise, is not the Argumentum Vericundiam fallacy.
It's when one appeals to an authority in one field, as an authority OUTSIDE their own field of expertise, that it's the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

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03-03-2017, 02:34 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
So let me get this straight just so I know where everyone here stands. You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 02:34 PM)Naielis Wrote:  So let me get this straight just so I know where everyone here stands. You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

I would not subscribe to any of those statements, because I don't like to be dogmatic about such questions. I don't think it's possible to achieve certainty on any metaphysical question -- pretty much by the definition of metaphysics. A year or two ago, I read a little book on metaphysics by Richard Taylor, and one statement stood out (I'm paraphrasing): "If you think you have a definite answer to a metaphysical question, that's a sure sign that you don't understand it." I subscribe to that.
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03-03-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 02:50 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I would not subscribe to any of those statements, because I don't like to be dogmatic about such questions. I don't think it's possible to achieve certainty on any metaphysical question -- pretty much by the definition of metaphysics. A year or two ago, I read a little book on metaphysics by Richard Taylor, and one statement stood out (I'm paraphrasing): "If you think you have a definite answer to a metaphysical question, that's a sure sign that you don't understand it." I subscribe to that.

I would agree with you for the vast majority of metaphysical questions. But there are some that we can answer with certainty.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
If anyone here still thinks there are no problems with materialism and neuroscience has dealt with the hard problem of consciousness, please watch this video with Sam Harris.

https://youtu.be/1bmHL1sbntw

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 03:15 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 02:50 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I would not subscribe to any of those statements, because I don't like to be dogmatic about such questions. I don't think it's possible to achieve certainty on any metaphysical question -- pretty much by the definition of metaphysics. A year or two ago, I read a little book on metaphysics by Richard Taylor, and one statement stood out (I'm paraphrasing): "If you think you have a definite answer to a metaphysical question, that's a sure sign that you don't understand it." I subscribe to that.

I would agree with you for the vast majority of metaphysical questions. But there are some that we can answer with certainty.

Those would be the ones that are either useless tautologies or not really metaphysical.
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