Arguments agaisnt Materialism
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03-03-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 02:34 PM)Naielis Wrote:  You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

There is no evidence for dualism, because ontological positions are by definition not supported by evidence. In addition to this, however, since you are obviously in the camp that tries to rope in all sorts of riders to the technical definition of "dualism", no, there is no evidence that things like souls exist or that the mind is anything more than brain function.

The hard problem of consciousness exists, but is not an issue for materialism. Mind states are brain states. Materialism is true.

Get over it.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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03-03-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 02:34 PM)Naielis Wrote:  So let me get this straight just so I know where everyone here stands. You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

There is no "hard problem of consciousness". There is no consciousness in the absence of healthy functioning brain systems, AND it ceases when brains are damaged, ill, or otherwise gravely impaired. You have no evidence for Dualism. It's an argument from ignorance. A (god of the) gap filler, as you know nothing about Neuro-science.

Get over it.

If Dualism could be true, then so could Quintupleism.
You have no reason to stop at Dualism, if you're invoking woo.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-03-2017, 06:23 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 03:48 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 02:34 PM)Naielis Wrote:  You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

There is no evidence for dualism, because ontological positions are by definition not supported by evidence. In addition to this, however, since you are obviously in the camp that tries to rope in all sorts of riders to the technical definition of "dualism", no, there is no evidence that things like souls exist or that the mind is anything more than brain function.

The hard problem of consciousness exists, but is not an issue for materialism. Mind states are brain states. Materialism is true.

Get over it.

Did you watch the video?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 06:24 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 04:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 02:34 PM)Naielis Wrote:  So let me get this straight just so I know where everyone here stands. You all think there's no evidence for dualism? There's no hard problem of consciousness? Identity Theory is true? And materialism has no flaws?

There is no "hard problem of consciousness". There is no consciousness in the absence of healthy functioning brain systems, AND it ceases when brains are damaged, ill, or otherwise gravely impaired. You have no evidence for Dualism. It's an argument from ignorance. A (god of the) gap filler, as you know nothing about Neuro-science.

Get over it.

If Dualism could be true, then so could Quintupleism.
You have no reason to stop at Dualism, if you're invoking woo.

So Sam Harris, David Chalmers, and Alexander Rosenberg invoke woo? Good god did you even watch the video?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2017 06:45 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
I did. I think for myself Nelly boy. YOU have no evidence for woo, neither do they.
If things are unexplained, then they are unexplained. It's never a justification for
"I don't know, so insert woo here".

And BTW, if you are impressed with something they say, then intelligently and knowledgeably PRESENT it with support, in your own words, or STFU.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-03-2017, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2017 06:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
http://www.quora.com/How-are-memories-st...uman-brain
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ciousness/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...en-we-die/

"The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, however, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously. Stroke-caused damage to the visual cortex region called V1 leads to loss of conscious visual perception. Changes in conscious experience can be directly measured by functional MRI, electroencephalography and single-neuron recordings. Neuroscientists can predict human choices from brain-scanning activity before the subject is even consciously aware of the decisions made. Using brain scans alone, neuroscientists have even been able to reconstruct, on a computer screen, what someone is seeing."

"Thousands of experiments confirm the hypothesis that neurochemical processes produce subjective experiences. The fact that neuroscientists are not in agreement over which physicalist theory best accounts for mind does not mean that the hypothesis that consciousness creates matter holds equal standing."

You know nothing about Neuro-science, Nelly-boy.

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03-03-2017, 06:55 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 06:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.quora.com/How-are-memories-st...uman-brain
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ciousness/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...en-we-die/

"The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, however, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously. Stroke-caused damage to the visual cortex region called V1 leads to loss of conscious visual perception. Changes in conscious experience can be directly measured by functional MRI, electroencephalography and single-neuron recordings. Neuroscientists can predict human choices from brain-scanning activity before the subject is even consciously aware of the decisions made. Using brain scans alone, neuroscientists have even been able to reconstruct, on a computer screen, what someone is seeing."

You know nothing about Neuro-science, Nelly-boy.

I know a little about neuroscience. But I know Harris knows quite a bit about it. Why does he reject materialism? And I have presented it. I can present more arguments if you want. How about Leibniz Mill? Or the knowledge argument? How does the materialist address these? Also, no one here is contesting that the brain creates consciousness. The question is can we explain the phenomena (or perhaps epiphenomena) of consciousness with only material things? Leibniz's Mill and the knowledge argument show that we can't.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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03-03-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 06:55 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 06:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.quora.com/How-are-memories-st...uman-brain
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ciousness/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...en-we-die/

"The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, however, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously. Stroke-caused damage to the visual cortex region called V1 leads to loss of conscious visual perception. Changes in conscious experience can be directly measured by functional MRI, electroencephalography and single-neuron recordings. Neuroscientists can predict human choices from brain-scanning activity before the subject is even consciously aware of the decisions made. Using brain scans alone, neuroscientists have even been able to reconstruct, on a computer screen, what someone is seeing."

You know nothing about Neuro-science, Nelly-boy.

I know a little about neuroscience. But I know Harris knows quite a bit about it. Why does he reject materialism? And I have presented it. I can present more arguments if you want. How about Leibniz Mill? Or the knowledge argument? How does the materialist address these? Also, no one here is contesting that the brain creates consciousness. The question is can we explain the phenomena (or perhaps epiphenomena) of consciousness with only material things? Leibniz's Mill and the knowledge argument show that we can't.

You know nothing about Neuro-science.
Present a REAL argument YOURSELF, or STFU.
Saying "I know someone knows something" is pathetic.
I can counter everything they can cook up.

The Leibniz's Mill bullshit is utterly false. It's an assertion with no evidence.
HE knew nothing about modern Neuro-science. We KNOW why we perceive what we perceive, and how babies LEARN to integrate sensory perceptions in their brains and how they TEST those until they get them right. Leibnitz said perceptions "don't involve thinking", and he was totally WRONG, (as any Neuro-psych educated person would know). Then he JUMPS to a false conclusion, because his premises are wrong. Saying "it's just too mysterious so I must invoke woo" is all they have. It's bullshit. We can WATCH brains function and think with a PET scan and an MRI.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-03-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 06:55 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Leibniz's Mill

"Materialists reply that he hasn't explained anything. He's said physical things don't explain thinking, but he hasn't said how immaterial minds do any better. What is this immaterial mind thing supposed to be, and how does it explain thinking any better than physical processes? The physical processes may lead to thinking. It's sort of mysterious how they'd do that, but that doesn't mean they don't. Dualism hasn't added anything like an explanation, just the claim that something else is needed. So has the dualist really explained anything? If not, the materialist says, then the simplicity principle tells us to be materialists."
From http://parablemania.ektopos.com/archives...-mill.html
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03-03-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(03-03-2017 06:23 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Did you watch the video?

A better question. What part of the video do you think proves anything that I said wrong, and why?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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