Arguments agaisnt Materialism
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30-03-2017, 01:59 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 01:48 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Anyway I don't think the issues of the causes of gravity and electromagnetism are comparable to the hard problem of consciousness. They're easy problems according to the definition Chalmers lays out. Because we know how we might go about solving these issues, they aren't under the category of "hard".

Really? How do solid bodies separated by millions of miles of space (for example, the earth and the sun) exert forces on each other? That's not in any way an "easy" problem, and we have no clue how to go about solving it. "Action at a distance" is every bit as mysterious and spooky as consciousness. And solving this "problem" is every bit as unimportant. Neither has any practical significance.
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30-03-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 01:48 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Anyway I don't think the issues of the causes of gravity and electromagnetism are comparable to the hard problem of consciousness. They're easy problems according to....

New theory of gravity might explain dark matter

Quote:Gravity is in dire need of new approaches like the one by Verlinde, since it doesn't combine well with quantum physics. Both theories, crown jewels of 20th century physics, cannot be true at the same time.
Quote:We might be standing on the brink of a new scientific revolution that will radically change our views on the very nature of space, time and gravity

Please tell us again, how easy and insignificant gravity and our understanding of it is compared to your lack of understanding about the emergent property of a brain.

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30-03-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 02:16 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  New theory of gravity might explain dark matter

Cool.

Cool
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30-03-2017, 03:05 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 01:59 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 01:48 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Anyway I don't think the issues of the causes of gravity and electromagnetism are comparable to the hard problem of consciousness. They're easy problems according to the definition Chalmers lays out. Because we know how we might go about solving these issues, they aren't under the category of "hard".

Really? How do solid bodies separated by millions of miles of space (for example, the earth and the sun) exert forces on each other? That's not in any way an "easy" problem, and we have no clue how to go about solving it. "Action at a distance" is every bit as mysterious and spooky as consciousness. And solving this "problem" is every bit as unimportant. Neither has any practical significance.

I'm using "easy" to indicate that we know the method by which we can solve the problem. This is how Chalmers uses it. We know we can use the scientific method to understand physical constructs and mechanisms. That's easy. It's certainly not easy in the colloquial sense. But this is not a colloquial discussion.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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30-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 02:16 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 01:48 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Anyway I don't think the issues of the causes of gravity and electromagnetism are comparable to the hard problem of consciousness. They're easy problems according to....

New theory of gravity might explain dark matter

Quote:Gravity is in dire need of new approaches like the one by Verlinde, since it doesn't combine well with quantum physics. Both theories, crown jewels of 20th century physics, cannot be true at the same time.
Quote:We might be standing on the brink of a new scientific revolution that will radically change our views on the very nature of space, time and gravity

Please tell us again, how easy and insignificant gravity and our understanding of it is compared to your lack of understanding about the emergent property of a brain.

Honestly I think you're just trying to do a witty one-liner here. Your question doesn't even follow from your previous statement. The whole point was that we [/b]don't[b] understand gravity. But in your question you make it seem like I think my lack of understanding is better than an understanding. You have no understanding of how gravity works. And no I don't think understanding gravity is insignificant at all. That's a complete straw man. Stop aiming for likes on your post and try addressing what I actually say.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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30-03-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 02:20 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 02:16 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  New theory of gravity might explain dark matter

Cool.

Cool

"In 2010, Erik Verlinde surprised the world with a completely new theory of gravity. According to Verlinde, gravity is not a fundamental force of nature, but an emergent phenomenon. In the same way that temperature arises from the movement of microscopic particles, gravity emerges from the changes of fundamental bits of information, stored in the very structure of spacetime."

Really cool.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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30-03-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 03:05 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 01:59 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Really? How do solid bodies separated by millions of miles of space (for example, the earth and the sun) exert forces on each other? That's not in any way an "easy" problem, and we have no clue how to go about solving it. "Action at a distance" is every bit as mysterious and spooky as consciousness. And solving this "problem" is every bit as unimportant. Neither has any practical significance.

I'm using "easy" to indicate that we know the method by which we can solve the problem. This is how Chalmers uses it. We know we can use the scientific method to understand physical constructs and mechanisms. That's easy. It's certainly not easy in the colloquial sense. But this is not a colloquial discussion.

I think you're missing my point. This is not a scientific question, and the scientific method won't help us find the answer. We know that the sun and earth influence each other's motion (and we can mathematically describe the magnitude and direction of the influence), but we don't have the slightest idea how they do so -- or how to go about discovering this. It is exactly the same sort of problem as the hard problem of consciousness.
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30-03-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 03:21 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 03:05 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I'm using "easy" to indicate that we know the method by which we can solve the problem. This is how Chalmers uses it. We know we can use the scientific method to understand physical constructs and mechanisms. That's easy. It's certainly not easy in the colloquial sense. But this is not a colloquial discussion.

I think you're missing my point. This is not a scientific question, and the scientific method won't help us find the answer. We know that the sun and earth influence each other's motion (and we can mathematically describe the magnitude and direction of the influence), but we don't have the slightest idea how they do so -- or how to go about discovering this. It is exactly the same sort of problem as the hard problem of consciousness.

You don't think we can use the scientific method to determine the mechanism of gravity? I disagree. A physical problem warrants an empirical approach.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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30-03-2017, 03:47 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(30-03-2017 03:41 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(30-03-2017 03:21 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think you're missing my point. This is not a scientific question, and the scientific method won't help us find the answer. We know that the sun and earth influence each other's motion (and we can mathematically describe the magnitude and direction of the influence), but we don't have the slightest idea how they do so -- or how to go about discovering this. It is exactly the same sort of problem as the hard problem of consciousness.

You don't think we can use the scientific method to determine the mechanism of gravity? I disagree. A physical problem warrants an empirical approach.

The empirical approach (to this particular problem) has already told us all it's ever going to tell us, and all we really need to know. It can't and won't ever tell us the "how". That's a metaphysical question (i.e., a question that can't be answered).
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30-03-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
Jesusinho! This thread's still going on? I was positive it would have wound down by now Drinking Beverage

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