Arguments agaisnt Materialism
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07-04-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 12:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:30 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Oh I agree. There are multiple forms of materialism, or as it's more commonly referred to, physicalism. I think property dualism and predicate dualism could both fit into the physicalist spectrum. What I'm combatting is reductive materialism. In the beginning of my paper, I go to great lengths to define this materialism that I'm combatting because the term encompasses a large array of views. But I'm not necessarily opposed to physicalism. I think at least supervenience physicalism is true.

If you are combating purely reductive materialism, then you are tilting at windmills. Or straw men.

There just aren't any extreme reductionists in the real world.

It's beginning to be less popular among philosophers, but there are still quite a few in the scientific community.

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07-04-2017, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2017 01:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
Quote:Emotions are a layer of abstraction above what it actually happening in the brain, a useful abstraction for conveying that subjective experience to another who understands your language,

Wrong.
Emotions ACTUALLY happen in a brain. They existed BEFORE anyone even thought of conveying how they feel. Ignorance of what emotions actually are. Made up irrelevant bullshit concerning a layer that is non-existent. Emotions are not "abstractions". Fear is REAL. Fear is not a description. Fear occurs PHYSICALLY when (only) chemical reactions are triggered.

Quote:but it fails to grasp what is fundamentally happening inside the brain. But emotions exist on a gradient, and their descriptions change with language,

No shit Sherlock. Irrelevant. "Descriptions of emotions" are not the subject at hand.

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07-04-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
Bucky you also said this: "The process IS WHAT IT IS. It can neither be enhanced or reduced to get the same outcome".

Based on this, I don't think you understand what reductionism is.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-04-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 12:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:Emotions are a layer of abstraction above what it actually happening in the brain, a useful abstraction for conveying that subjective experience to another who understands your language,

Wrong.
Emotions ACTUALLY happen in a brain. They existed BEFORE anyone even thought of conveying how they feel. Ignorance of what emotions actually are. Made up irrelevant bullshit concerning a layer that is non-existent. Emotions are not "abstractions". Fear is REAL. Fear is not a description. Fear occurs PHYSICALLY
when (only) chemical reactions are triggered.

Quote:but it fails to grasp what is fundamentally happening inside the brain. But emotions exist on a gradient, and their descriptions change with language,


No shit Sherlock. Irrelevant. "Descriptions of emotions" are not the subject at hand.

Oh no now you're turning on your fellow forumites. What do you mean emotions happen in the brain? Emotions do not take place in a certain position. It is nonsensical to say your happiness is located a few inches behind your eye. It is an immaterial emergent property of a physical process within the brain.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-04-2017, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2017 01:07 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 12:48 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I'm not dishonest at all. I just didn't see that post.

Bullshit. I've been saying that ALL ALONG in this thread, multiple times.

Quote:But you see to contradict yourself in that post. You go on to say "Physical processes explain all there is, and all that we know." My entire point is that consciousness is not fully explained by the physical.

You have no clue what you're saying.
THEN TELL us what does *explain consciousness* ?

The fact is, consciousness emerges from the ONLY (complex) physical structures. There is nothing missing in what emerges from the (only) physical.

Quote:If you aren't a reductionist, then you would agree with that statement. So what do you mean when you say all things are explained by the physical?

It means your woo is not needed to explain consciousness.
Your childish idiotic (redefined) categories are of no interest to me.

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07-04-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 12:53 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you are combating purely reductive materialism, then you are tilting at windmills. Or straw men.

There just aren't any extreme reductionists in the real world.

It's beginning to be less popular among philosophers, but there are still quite a few in the scientific community.

I rather doubt it. Please provide some evidence of that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-04-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 01:00 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong.
Emotions ACTUALLY happen in a brain. They existed BEFORE anyone even thought of conveying how they feel. Ignorance of what emotions actually are. Made up irrelevant bullshit concerning a layer that is non-existent. Emotions are not "abstractions". Fear is REAL. Fear is not a description. Fear occurs PHYSICALLY
when (only) chemical reactions are triggered.



No shit Sherlock. Irrelevant. "Descriptions of emotions" are not the subject at hand.

Oh no now you're turning on your fellow forumites. What do you mean emotions happen in the brain? Emotions do not take place in a certain position. It is nonsensical to say your happiness is located a few inches behind your eye. It is an immaterial emergent property of a physical process within the brain.

Your happiness is located in your fucking foot ?
Your desperation is showing.

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07-04-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 12:57 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Bucky you also said this: "The process IS WHAT IT IS. It can neither be enhanced or reduced to get the same outcome".

Based on this, I don't think you understand what reductionism is.

That's because you don't even know what you are talking about.

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07-04-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(06-04-2017 09:39 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 07:01 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Finally you said it. You think dualism is a remnant of theism.

Because it is. The soul is bunk. We have no reason to think there is anything else there doing the work except our grey matter.

It might historically be associated with theism. But to reiterate, we are far from the days of the substance dualists. Contemporary dualists don't necessarily argue for the existence of souls. Souls are bunk. But we do have reason to believe that there is more than just the material substance and material properties. There are also mental properties.

Quote:If you have evidence in favor of a hitherto unknown and undetectable mechanism to explain a dualistic model that also comports with all the evidence we already have for neuroscience (fMRI studies, chemical manipulation, decreased function tied to physical trauma, etc.) and explains it better than current models, then present it already, and get your Noble Prize.

What mechanism are you talking about? Property dualism makes no claims about an undetectable mechanism. It simply says that there are two types of properties that exist.


Quote:
(06-04-2017 07:01 AM)Naielis Wrote:  That's why, even though I've explained countless times how you have a difficult problem, you ignore me and shout about my ignorance of neuroscience.

Because it's evident with every post you make.

Irrelevant. I haven't had a chance to study neuroscience yet. That isn't the point at all.

Quote:You are indeed wasting time... Drinking Beverage

I agree. But I've never been one to walk away from a debate.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-04-2017, 01:12 PM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(07-04-2017 01:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:57 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Bucky you also said this: "The process IS WHAT IT IS. It can neither be enhanced or reduced to get the same outcome".

Based on this, I don't think you understand what reductionism is.

That's because you don't even know what you are talking about.

I think I do lol. Perhaps you should do your quick Wikipedia search of the subject.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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