Arguments agaisnt Materialism
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09-04-2017, 04:52 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(08-04-2017 11:42 PM)surreptitious57 Wrote:  First of all I do not do belief so have no belief structures as such.

Really you have no beliefs? That's interesting? Do you believe that you no beliefs? Of course you're confused. You're referring to no beliefs about god. This is false. You have beliefs about the viability of god. These beliefs find themselves at the center of many atheists' worldviews.

Quote:Secondly atheism is nothing more than the non acceptance of a specific truth claim with
reference to the existence of metaphysical beings.

Actually atheism has been a rejection of the concept of a god rather than a lack of belief in it. It's only recently that American Atheists changed this definition to a lack of belief which encompasses deniers and those who merely withhold belief. https://www.britannica.com/topic/atheism
http://www.iep.utm.edu/atheism/

But I'll let you define your terms however you want as long as you're consistent.

Quote:This is not much to base a world view on because it says absolutely nothing about the world otherwise

That is true.

Quote:Thirdly science and more specifically the scientific method is the best means to investigate observable phenomena.

Obviously... but that doesn't mean it can be the foundation of a worldview.

Quote: For that is as rigorous as possible and
could not actually be more so. Since it incorporates evidence and repeatability and intersubjectivity and potential falsification and peer review as standard
requirements. Its only weakness is it is overseen by scientists who are human and therefore fallible. But any bias is eliminated over time.

I don't need the virtues of science explained to me.

Quote:Fourthly science
cannot investigate any thing non physical for there is no evidence that it exists.

I'm not convinced that this is true. Empirical analysis could possibly tell you something about nonphysical things.

Quote:If there was it would be physical. Without evidence I cannot accept some
thing actually exists.

What is evidence?

Quote:I can however accept in principle the possibility of something physical existing that has yet to be discovered but that is not the same
The fact of the matter is that science is simply the best means of investigating observable phenomena there is. For other methodologies to be considered
instead they would have to be more rigorous and effective than it is. As no such methodologies exist science therefore must be the one to be relied upon

I agree completely.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-04-2017, 04:55 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 02:06 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Atheism huh? Dropped the ball there. This whole subject has nothing to do with it. Well, not for us anyway.

You can't have a belief system based on atheism any more than you can have one based on not believing there's a purple donkey in a cave somewhere that has control of your knees.

That doesn't stop you.

Quote:Science is the best, and only, way that has been shown to reliably study reality. If people have better ways, it's up to them to show what they are, and why they are better. This never happens. But they're welcome to try. Anyone who makes comments against science probably doesn't even understand what science is. It's clear Nails has no idea. Once again, he's conflating methodological and philosophical naturalism. He's too lazy to go look those up I guess and too dishonest to try and stop doing this. I already explained the difference a bunch of times.

No. Science is the best way to study observable physical reality. Reality and existence as a whole can best be studied by the a priori method of metaphysics.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-04-2017, 06:23 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 04:52 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Really you have no beliefs

No I do not. Because belief is predicated upon faith and faith positions require no evidence. So everything I think is true must have some evidence to
support it otherwise there is no reason for me to think it true even if it actually is. I hold no position about physical reality on the basis of belief alone
I avoid using the word believe altogether even in an informal sense preferring think instead. And so for example : I think it will rain today rather than
I believe it will rain today. This might seem rather pedantic [ I admit that it is ] but for me the word is superfluous so I have no reason to use it at all

A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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09-04-2017, 06:28 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2017 08:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 04:55 AM)Naielis Wrote:  No. Science is the best way to study observable physical reality. Reality and existence as a whole can best be studied by the a priori method of metaphysics.

So you claim, Your Philoso-Babble Holiness.
You, making pontifical pronouncements, with not a shred of support or even definition is utterly worthless .... just like almost all the bullshit you write here.
What YOU determine is best for you, Your Fucking Arrogant Holiness, may not be best for others.
Jesus H Fucking Christ you act like an infant. It hasn't helped you here, now, has it ?
Idiot. Could you please be smarter. We'll define our own terms, whether you think you'll "let us define our own terms" or not, Herr Nelly.

"If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion". [Enquiry concerning the Human Understanding, 132] Hume


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-m...nMetTraAna
http://documents.routledge-interactive.s...nsense.pdf
http://nptel.ac.in/courses/109106051/Mod...r%2022.pdf

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09-04-2017, 06:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2017 06:33 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
It all comes down to assigning a probability, really. Language is malleable.

I believe we still have milk in the fridge. (70% sure)
I know my car is parked outside. (97% sure)
I'm certain I have a wife. (99.99% sure)

Of course, it's always possible I'm wrong about everything. I'm happy to accept that, but there's no need to acknowledge it in every informal sentence.

And even if my experiences of reality aren't what I think they are, my statements are still meaningful within whatever framework this happens to be. I have been successful at guaging probabilities, and so I have a decent amount of confidence that I will continue to do so fairly well. If I actually "don't exist" (whatever that may mean), or I'm dribbling connected to a machine somewhere and imagining all this, I've lost nothing by trying to make sense of reality as I find it.

PS @ Nails: You haven't produced a single result. So you can study all you want, but all you do is make assertions. If you can't demonstrate what you think you know is true, and by definition it appears to be impossible, it's all worthless speculation. You're off studying your own imaginary land in your head. You're just assuming reality conforms precisely to your own brand of special logic and assumptions. It doesn't have to do shit. We need to check with it; hence science.

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09-04-2017, 06:50 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 04:52 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Empirical analysis could possibly tell you something about nonphysical things

A non physical thing would have no physical property or dimension. It would be incapable of interacting with anything. It would occupy
no point in spacetime at either the classical or quantum level. And no physical equipment regardless of accuracy or sensitivity would be
able to detect it for it would not actually exist. And so therefore empirical analysis has absolutely nothing to say about the non physical

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09-04-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
"Non-physical things" is an oxymoron. Physical means existent, just as material means existent.

That doesn't mean science can currently, or ever will, be able to detect all physical things. But trying to hide things in a semantic gap really is pointless.

As usual, it's a conflation of the abstract with the physical. Our interpretation of reality in the form of concepts does not make them suddenly exist independently. If they do, that's a claim that needs to be supported. And they don't seem to have any effect from whatever weird plane of existence they are potentially on, so it doesn't matter anyway. It's all story telling.

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09-04-2017, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2017 08:15 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 07:24 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  .. trying to hide things in a semantic gap really is pointless.

There's a whole lot of that going on in this thread as well as this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

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09-04-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
Yes, exactly. Thanks, I didn't know that had a name!

It gets really tough when you're not allowed to say "magic" huh Tongue

I'd still love to hear what any of this has to do with atheism.

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09-04-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Arguments agaisnt Materialism
(09-04-2017 08:21 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yes, exactly. Thanks, I didn't know that had a name!

It gets really tough when you're not allowed to say "magic" huh Tongue

I'd still love to hear what any of this has to do with atheism.

... or go off on how "properties don't have positions"
Laugh out load

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