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Arguments for God!
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15-03-2010, 10:29 PM
RE: Arguments for God!
I am open to discussing it further. I would, however, prefer to discuss it on this forum, so that anyone can participate, and those who choose not to can still benefit from reading the discussion.

As I mentioned, I am sometimes not great at expressing my thoughts, and I am also not very good at research like many of you are. Its not so much that I "need backup" as much as the fact that I lack the talent to backup my theories with documentation, even though I am aware that it may exist. (I am cursed with a photographic memory, however, I cannot control it! That basically means if something interests me, I store it in my long term memory, but the source of said information is usually not terribly interesting, so it isn't stored along with the information! LOL, I know, pain in the ass huh?) So, discussing this in an open forum allows others to help us both find supporting information for our arguments. In fact, its why I joined the forum in the first place. Simply to hear from like-minded people, and to find out what others think and how they support those ideas. I like that I am being challenged, but I'm just not always the best at debates.

EDIT - By the way, just for the record, its dude.

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15-03-2010, 10:48 PM
 
RE: Arguments for God!
(15-03-2010 10:29 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I am open to discussing it further. I would, however, prefer to discuss it on this forum, so that anyone can participate, and those who choose not to can still benefit from reading the discussion.

As I mentioned, I am sometimes not great at expressing my thoughts, and I am also not very good at research like many of you are. Its not so much that I "need backup" as much as the fact that I lack the talent to backup my theories with documentation, even though I am aware that it may exist. (I am cursed with a photographic memory, however, I cannot control it! That basically means if something interests me, I store it in my long term memory, but the source of said information is usually not terribly interesting, so it isn't stored along with the information! LOL, I know, pain in the ass huh?) So, discussing this in an open forum allows others to help us both find supporting information for our arguments. In fact, its why I joined the forum in the first place. Simply to hear from like-minded people, and to find out what others think and how they support those ideas. I like that I am being challenged, but I'm just not always the best at debates.

EDIT - By the way, just for the record, its dude.

Sorry, we are not "like minded" maybe I should leave but it did say "thinking atheist", you expressed your thoughts beautifully, they were your thoughts, Unbeliever will disagree but I know fallacies better than him, I could care less about arguments, fallacies etc. Here is a quote from John Maxwell, "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care" I don't care how much anyone knows, I just want to know that they care. Be passionate about what YOU believe! I always say "Chew the fruit, spit out the seeds" Listen to everyone, chew what they have to say, and take the things you like and swallow, and spit out the rest!

Martin
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15-03-2010, 11:15 PM
RE: Arguments for God!
Not saying we have to be like minded. Just meant that was why I initially joined the forum. It was a good suprise that I would encounter theists. I am a thinking atheist, and very happy with my life, morals, and beliefs. To think that I can discuss topics with a theist, and possibly show them the freedom that comes with beleiving things that make sense is wonderful. As a christian, it is your belief that your duty to god is to attempt to convert me, thus saving my soul. As an atheist, and a person who chooses my morals based on my feelings, and the way I would like to see people treat each other, I welcome the opportunity to take part in showing you and other theists the error in your beleifs. I feel that religion is detremental to the evolution of our society, and impedes the individuals ability to think clearly, and without prejudice. Martin, I welcome your thoughts and opinions, as long as they are shared in a respectful manner. Sure, these discussions can get pretty heated, since these are things we are emotional about, but I will attempt to keep it respectful if you do. I have to say, making assumptions about Unbelievers thoughts is disrespectful, and I have to ask you to refrain from calling others down if you wish to engage me in serious discussion. Fair?

That being said, what are your thoughts on time? Was god here before time? Do you think there is a beginning to time? How does the concept of time fit in with christian beliefs?

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15-03-2010, 11:44 PM
 
RE: Arguments for God!
(15-03-2010 11:15 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Not saying we have to be like minded. Just meant that was why I initially joined the forum. It was a good suprise that I would encounter theists. I am a thinking atheist, and very happy with my life, morals, and beliefs. To think that I can discuss topics with a theist, and possibly show them the freedom that comes with beleiving things that make sense is wonderful. As a christian, it is your belief that your duty to god is to attempt to convert me, thus saving my soul. As an atheist, and a person who chooses my morals based on my feelings, and the way I would like to see people treat each other, I welcome the opportunity to take part in showing you and other theists the error in your beleifs. I feel that religion is detremental to the evolution of our society, and impedes the individuals ability to think clearly, and without prejudice. Martin, I welcome your thoughts and opinions, as long as they are shared in a respectful manner. Sure, these discussions can get pretty heated, since these are things we are emotional about, but I will attempt to keep it respectful if you do. I have to say, making assumptions about Unbelievers thoughts is disrespectful, and I have to ask you to refrain from calling others down if you wish to engage me in serious discussion. Fair?

That being said, what are your thoughts on time? Was god here before time? Do you think there is a beginning to time? How does the concept of time fit in with christian beliefs?

Guess what??? I think religion is detrimental to the evolution (man I hate that word) to our society.

Unbeliever reminds me of the me from the past, I use to think I knew everything also. Most people on this site are younger, trust me when you get older and have kids, your kids will mimic you and you hate that behavior because it is a reflection of yourself! Think about that for a minute and how it relates to me and unbeliever, what does that say about myself?
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16-03-2010, 12:00 AM
RE: Arguments for God!
(15-03-2010 11:44 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Guess what??? I think religion is detrimental to the evolution (man I hate that word) to our society.

Please elaborate. I'm very interested to hear why you think this is true, and how you view yourself and your beliefs fitting into religion.

As far as your thoughts on Unbeliever...I am NOT interested in discussing another member of the forum. I just don't see how its realevant, and only see it as something that will "muddy the waters" of the present discussion. Also, it is disrespectful, and I will not budge on this. I'm sorry, but if another members character is brought up again, whether well intentioned or not, I will bow out of the discussion. If Unbeliever wishes to further involve himself in the discussion, that is up to him. That is my final word on this, ok?

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16-03-2010, 09:28 AM
 
RE: Arguments for God!
You are assuming a creation and that a creation must have a creator. I think that the universe has always been here, therefore (to paraphrase Hawking) what need is there for a creator? My position on god are that I do not say they do not exist, but due to the total lack of evidence for their existence I put gods in the same category of ghosts, vampires,werewolves, leprechauns, poltergeists and other things that go bump in the night. Therefore, I do not factor gods or creators into explanations of natural phenomena just as I don't factor in Pixie Dust.
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16-03-2010, 10:18 AM
RE: Arguments for God!
No, I'm not going to further engage in this discussion, as it invariably ends in a dead thread. Suffice to say, yes, I realize that he's insulted me, and no, I don't care.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-03-2010, 11:11 AM
RE: Arguments for God!
(16-03-2010 10:18 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No, I'm not going to further engage in this discussion, as it invariably ends in a dead thread. Suffice to say, yes, I realize that he's insulted me, and no, I don't care.

And this is what I feared. If you are unwilling to participate in a discussion on this forum because you believe the result will inevitably be negative, then something needs to change. Noone should feel that they can't be involved, unless they are driving others and their opinions away.

I have to wonder if the politics are worth wading through to have the discussion...

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16-03-2010, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2010 02:52 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Arguments for God!
That's not exactly what I meant.

You see, this is a discussion between you and martinb59. There's no reason for me to step in, as I'm not involved in it and there doesn't seem to be a need for me to. It's not particularly something I'm interested in discussing anyway. The only reason this became an issue at all is because martin went out of his way to insult me in an attempt to get my attention (or to try and undermine my credibility, I'm not sure which). I just don't see a need to participate in the discussion, nor to respond to his trolling, so don't feel like I'm being excluded. I'm not.

ETA: Hm. That isn't exactly the most understandable thing I've ever posted, is it? Let's put it this way: I have no reason to enter this discussion, except that martinb59 insulted me. I have no reason to attempt to defend myself, as he's just trolling and there's no point. So I don't see a need to step in.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-03-2010, 06:50 PM
 
RE: Arguments for God!
(16-03-2010 12:00 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(15-03-2010 11:44 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Guess what??? I think religion is detrimental to the evolution (man I hate that word) to our society.

Please elaborate. I'm very interested to hear why you think this is true, and how you view yourself and your beliefs fitting into religion.

As far as your thoughts on Unbeliever...I am NOT interested in discussing another member of the forum. I just don't see how its realevant, and only see it as something that will "muddy the waters" of the present discussion. Also, it is disrespectful, and I will not budge on this. I'm sorry, but if another members character is brought up again, whether well intentioned or not, I will bow out of the discussion. If Unbeliever wishes to further involve himself in the discussion, that is up to him. That is my final word on this, ok?

Man created religion, not God. Catholics hinge their view on a few verses in the Bible that most, except Catholics reject. Look at how many Christian Churches that are out there today. One study said 335,000 religious congregations in the US, and there are 217 denominations, the reason why there are so many denominations is because there are disagreements between them, why are there disagreements? egos etc. Look at the money that is spent on churches, it is crazy, look at the abuses etc. None of that is from God. Look at the wack jobs that were in those videos that were posted, that is as far from a Biblical message that can be.
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