Arguments theists might use but don't
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24-07-2011, 05:56 AM
Arguments theists might use but don't
I am reading "The fabric of the cosmos" by Brian Greene. It's very good. It has given me a much better feel for special and general relativity in particular.

It made me think of at least one argument theists might use and I would be amused to hear.

Quote:God can intervene how he likes in how quantum probability fields collapse. Miracles happen when something unlikely happens. So perhaps changing water to wine happened when Jesus knew that about half a mile away there was a stash of wine. He just collapsed the probability functions of the relevant water and wine molecules so that they swapped containers. However there are limitations. God must maintain the overall probability wave functions. This is one practical reason why God cannot intervene to stop each and every evil act.

This argument would allow probabilities to be assigned to miracles. Of course fraud or fiction are usually much more likely explanations for miracles.
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24-07-2011, 06:18 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
In that case, I guess god himself has to be above quantum physics to be able to manipulate waves and molecules without equipment invisible in this plane of existence.

Interesting, but... It sounds a lot like quantum-quack to me. Undecided

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24-07-2011, 06:24 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
(24-07-2011 06:18 AM)The_observer Wrote:  In that case, I guess god himself has to be above quantum physics to be able to manipulate waves and molecules without equipment invisible in this plane of existence.

Interesting, but... It sounds a lot like quantum-quack to me. Undecided

Absolutely. But I think it would a much more constructive argument then other apologetics books I have read recently. And it would be really impressive if he actually did the maths.
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24-07-2011, 08:59 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
NOTE: I meant visible where I said invisible.

agree.

however...
If he didn't do the math it's just a hypothesis.

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24-07-2011, 09:34 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
Shhh theists might be looking through this forum for ideas Tongue

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24-07-2011, 10:03 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
(24-07-2011 08:59 AM)The_observer Wrote:  NOTE: I meant visible where I said invisible.
Come to think about it...
I should have said "measurable" Confused


hmm...
I need coffee or something like that... Smile

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24-07-2011, 10:20 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
(24-07-2011 10:03 AM)The_observer Wrote:  
(24-07-2011 08:59 AM)The_observer Wrote:  NOTE: I meant visible where I said invisible.
Come to think about it...
I should have said "measurable" Confused


hmm...
I need coffee or something like that... Smile

I missed that error. How very unomniscient of me. Dodgy

Actually I have been thinking a lot about this book. It was a truly awful book. None of the arguments even slightly stood up. However at one point he argued that prayer probably operates through quantum mechanics.
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24-07-2011, 11:59 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
(24-07-2011 10:20 AM)angry_liberal Wrote:  However at one point he argued that prayer probably operates through quantum mechanics.
Even quantum physicists don't even fully understand quantum mechanics. If authors of books start to cling hypotheses to quantum effects, that triggers some serious skeptical alarms in my brain.

If the author thinks prayer works via quantum effects, maybe he should first demonstrate that prayer actually works beyond a placebo effect or a law of averages. If he does that, he probably can already claim his Nobel-price.

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25-07-2011, 06:31 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
(24-07-2011 05:56 AM)angry_liberal Wrote:  I am reading "The fabric of the cosmos" by Brian Greene. It's very good. It has given me a much better feel for special and general relativity in particular.

It made me think of at least one argument theists might use and I would be amused to hear.

Quote:God can intervene how he likes in how quantum probability fields collapse. Miracles happen when something unlikely happens. So perhaps changing water to wine happened when Jesus knew that about half a mile away there was a stash of wine. He just collapsed the probability functions of the relevant water and wine molecules so that they swapped containers. However there are limitations. God must maintain the overall probability wave functions. This is one practical reason why God cannot intervene to stop each and every evil act.

This argument would allow probabilities to be assigned to miracles. Of course fraud or fiction are usually much more likely explanations for miracles.


This is what I call rationalizing. This is not an argument if they have no proof that quantum physics is the doing of god. The bible mentions nothing of germs, microbes, or galaxies I highly doubt anyone could make a rational conclusion that god uses quantum physics. It all comes back down to how do you know that if the only information you have doesn't mention it.

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25-07-2011, 07:29 AM
RE: Arguments theists might use but don't
I would think an intellectual question to denounce "Darwinism" would be to ask if when a species separates the two branches divide and create diverse life, then why are all the humans able to procreate with each other? There are some places with some interesting mutations from three legs to growing a penis at puberty, but still every human is capable of mating with all the rest. Why didn't some sort of genetic barrier happen?

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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