Arguments to convince religious people
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01-07-2014, 02:07 AM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2014 03:07 AM by Mozart Link.)
Arguments to convince religious people
There are many arguments atheists can try in convincing religious people (for example, Richard Dawkins is someone who attempts to do this). What is the most convincing argument you have witnessed (or even something you have come up with)?

Here is a convincing argument that I came up with on my own:

There is no god responsible for how anything works (in this case, how the creation of the universe all worked out according to the big bang). Everything works according to science. If I were to point out any piece of working equipment (for example a t.v.), even if you are a religious person, you would immediately know that there is no god responsible for making it work and that how it works is not something magical or god-like. How is it that you already know this? It would be because you are already aware of the scientific facts which is that the t.v. is something that all works according to science. Therefore, if you were also aware of the scientific facts of how the universe was created, you would also believe that there is no god responsible for the creation of the universe. Science is how things work. Since everything works, then everything is science. God is not science because all scientific evidence points towards there being no god. Furthermore, God would be an intelligent entity (a "mind") responsible for the creation of the universe. But since the mind is something that was created through millions of years of evolution, it would be impossible for there to be a mind (especially one this intelligent that far surpasses any human intelligence) in the beginning before the creation of the universe and evolution itself. All that was there in the very beginning was free-floating particles in space. Science even explains how these particles existed as well.

Genuises like Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god. It is not some crazy opinion of theirs that they came up with because they are "mad geniuses." They have deep respect for science and they make their conclusions based on science alone. For them to not do so would be illogical of them and would also be disrespect to science. Therefore, science alone by itself is what says there is no god and not some opinion of a crazy person who has no sense of logic or respect.

God is a superstition just like Thor the god of lightning. There used to be a belief that there was a god responsible for lightning occurring. But this was proven false by science. We now know how lightning works according to science. Virtually all superstition has been proven false by science and science is practically 90% to also disproving the existence of God and obviously ghosts and an afterlife (heaven and hell).

As for that remaining 10%, that is not evidence towards there being a God. Science does point towards some mysteries in the creation of the universe, but there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is evidence for a God because, again, science has virtually disproven all superstition and even God in this case. Therefore, there is every reason to believe in science rather than a God.

Ghosts are superstition including heaven and hell. You might see tv shows involving ghosts claiming scientific evidence for ghosts and an afterlife, but these are all fake shows. People claiming to have witnessed ghosts and such are all delusional and this is all just a matter of their minds playing tricks on them.

Finally, just because you feel that there is more to life than just simply living and then dying and going nowhere does not make it true at all that there is a God and an afterlife. Or that you feel that bad people should get what they deserve in the end and burn in hell and that good people should go to heaven does not make it true at all that there is a heaven and a hell. There are lots of things we feel in life that should be true, but that doesn't make it true at all. What we feel is not reality. Science is reality.
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01-07-2014, 03:04 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
I don't try to convince anyone, it's a waste of time. If someone is seriously seeking answers to questions they have about their beliefs I'm more than happy to help if I can.
If someone were to start preaching to me, I would try my best to punch holes in their arguments, but I hold no delusions about changing them.
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01-07-2014, 04:12 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
HI,

Well, can I ask you to answer some questions? And make some statements? So I can see how strong your idea is?

1. The Big bang is something that can be seen as. The starting point for both side of the debate! However, that is where god started the cosmos to his calculation that the laws of physics now follow! Can you disprove that? (They are gods laws before man decided to explain his laws to a universe that they did not want god in it!)

2. With god being timeless and he will be there to day, tomorrow and has always be there for ever and ever. He has had plenty of thought to go in to the shape of atoms and the placement of the electron fields before he started the Big Bang!

3. With Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god! You are leaving out the fact that they are only witnessing the might and majesty of gods work after the event. They are only looking at the mechanics of the cosmos, as prescribed by god!
So do they only see the order given by god!

3. As man is a frail animal we can only marvel at the fact that god gave us the lightening to balance out the forces given to the earth by the solar winds that hit our ionosphere! We only misinterpreted it. However, we can see that its god order and his way of balancing the earth to support out lives!

4. I will not argue with the ghosts as the are not spirits from the dead. However, I can say that when you depart this life your sole is in ascendance to heaven!
God take up his flock so there is none to be tested!

Now counter these arguments?


This is the sort of responses I have to put up with!

I am a card carrying atheist and have been for almost 40 years now!

I hope you have not smacked your self in the face during this discord!

Your argument is good but you may need to counter some replays like this!

Have a go as a mental exercise!

K:

Arguing with a zealot is only slightly easier than tunneling through a mountain with your forehead!
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01-07-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
(01-07-2014 02:07 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  ...
Here is a convincing argument that I came up with on my own:
...

This is essentially a god(s) of the gaps argument + a caution against wishful thinking.

You have made many assertions so it's kinda like an appeal to common sense ... I recommend some pruning / editing / structure to formalise an 'argument'.

Your appeal to authority would be countered with "Is science your god?".

I agree that is impossible but what is your reasoning behind the assertion that "...it would be impossible for there to be a mind ... in the beginning before the creation of the universe and evolution itself"?

You say, "Science is how things work". I disagree.

Process is how things work. Science is our currently best method for discovering the processes.

Wink

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01-07-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
(01-07-2014 02:07 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  There are many arguments atheists can try in convincing religious people (for example, Richard Dawkins is someone who attempts to do this). What is the most convincing argument you have witnessed (or even something you have come up with)?

Here is a convincing argument that I came up with on my own:

There is no god responsible for how anything works (in this case, how the creation of the universe all worked out according to the big bang). Everything works according to science. If I were to point out any piece of working equipment (for example a t.v.), even if you are a religious person, you would immediately know that there is no god responsible for making it work and that how it works is not something magical or god-like. How is it that you already know this? It would be because you are already aware of the scientific facts which is that the t.v. is something that all works according to science. Therefore, if you were also aware of the scientific facts of how the universe was created, you would also believe that there is no god responsible for the creation of the universe. Science is how things work. Since everything works, then everything is science. God is not science because all scientific evidence points towards there being no god. Furthermore, God would be an intelligent entity (a "mind") responsible for the creation of the universe. But since the mind is something that was created through millions of years of evolution, it would be impossible for there to be a mind (especially one this intelligent that far surpasses any human intelligence) in the beginning before the creation of the universe and evolution itself. All that was there in the very beginning was free-floating particles in space. Science even explains how these particles existed as well.

Genuises like Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god. It is not some crazy opinion of theirs that they came up with because they are "mad geniuses." They have deep respect for science and they make their conclusions based on science alone. For them to not do so would be illogical of them and would also be disrespect to science. Therefore, science alone by itself is what says there is no god and not some opinion of a crazy person who has no sense of logic or respect.

God is a superstition just like Thor the god of lightning. There used to be a belief that there was a god responsible for lightning occurring. But this was proven false by science. We now know how lightning works according to science. Virtually all superstition has been proven false by science and science is practically 90% to also disproving the existence of God and obviously ghosts and an afterlife (heaven and hell).

As for that remaining 10%, that is not evidence towards there being a God. Science does point towards some mysteries in the creation of the universe, but there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is evidence for a God because, again, science has virtually disproven all superstition and even God in this case. Therefore, there is every reason to believe in science rather than a God.

Ghosts are superstition including heaven and hell. You might see tv shows involving ghosts claiming scientific evidence for ghosts and an afterlife, but these are all fake shows. People claiming to have witnessed ghosts and such are all delusional and this is all just a matter of their minds playing tricks on them.

Finally, just because you feel that there is more to life than just simply living and then dying and going nowhere does not make it true at all that there is a God and an afterlife. Or that you feel that bad people should get what they deserve in the end and burn in hell and that good people should go to heaven does not make it true at all that there is a heaven and a hell. There are lots of things we feel in life that should be true, but that doesn't make it true at all. What we feel is not reality. Science is reality.

I tend not to try and convince someone because that's not what it's about. I try and provide information so that on your own time in your own way you come to an conclusion. Out of respect for my fellow humans the best thing I can leave behind or give is knowledge. Just my two cents.
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01-07-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
(01-07-2014 04:12 AM)JONES Wrote:  HI,

Well, can I ask you to answer some questions? And make some statements? So I can see how strong your idea is?

1. The Big bang is something that can be seen as. The starting point for both side of the debate! However, that is where god started the cosmos to his calculation that the laws of physics now follow! Can you disprove that? (They are gods laws before man decided to explain his laws to a universe that they did not want god in it!)

2. With god being timeless and he will be there to day, tomorrow and has always be there for ever and ever. He has had plenty of thought to go in to the shape of atoms and the placement of the electron fields before he started the Big Bang!

3. With Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god! You are leaving out the fact that they are only witnessing the might and majesty of gods work after the event. They are only looking at the mechanics of the cosmos, as prescribed by god!
So do they only see the order given by god!

3. As man is a frail animal we can only marvel at the fact that god gave us the lightening to balance out the forces given to the earth by the solar winds that hit our ionosphere! We only misinterpreted it. However, we can see that its god order and his way of balancing the earth to support out lives!

4. I will not argue with the ghosts as the are not spirits from the dead. However, I can say that when you depart this life your sole is in ascendance to heaven!
God take up his flock so there is none to be tested!

Now counter these arguments?


This is the sort of responses I have to put up with!

I am a card carrying atheist and have been for almost 40 years now!

I hope you have not smacked your self in the face during this discord!

Your argument is good but you may need to counter some replays like this!

Have a go as a mental exercise!

K:
I will go ahead and try. No matter what angle you approach in arguing for the existence of God, the fact still remains that all scientific evidence points towards there being no God (even in the situations you've mentioned above). Even if there were such an argument for God that no evidence of science can go against, there would be no reason to believe in God because, again, virtually all scientific evidence points towards there being no God. You should believe whatever has more evidence to support it. In this case, science has more evidence. As for "evidence" for God, this can all be practically disproven by science. If you were to believe in God anyway, this would all go back to my reasoning of what you feel is not reality and that science is reality.

Quote:You say, "Science is how things work". I disagree.

Process is how things work. Science is our currently best method for discovering the processes.
There may be things currently beyond our understanding of science at this moment. But so far, science has so far proven that everything works according to science and that there is nothing beyond science in terms of superstition.
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01-07-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
You are giving theists way too much credit when it comes to seperating the supernatural from the explainable, and science.

Remember, these are the same people who can get cancer, go through years of painful therapy and tons of medicine, and then thank God for curing their cancer.
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01-07-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
Faith - the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion - A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - The embracement of delusion.

'nuff said Yes

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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-07-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
(01-07-2014 02:07 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  There are many arguments atheists can try in convincing religious people (for example, Richard Dawkins is someone who attempts to do this). What is the most convincing argument you have witnessed (or even something you have come up with)?

Here is a convincing argument that I came up with on my own:

There is no god responsible for how anything works (in this case, how the creation of the universe all worked out according to the big bang). Everything works according to science. If I were to point out any piece of working equipment (for example a t.v.), even if you are a religious person, you would immediately know that there is no god responsible for making it work and that how it works is not something magical or god-like. How is it that you already know this? It would be because you are already aware of the scientific facts which is that the t.v. is something that all works according to science. Therefore, if you were also aware of the scientific facts of how the universe was created, you would also believe that there is no god responsible for the creation of the universe. Science is how things work. Since everything works, then everything is science. God is not science because all scientific evidence points towards there being no god. Furthermore, God would be an intelligent entity (a "mind") responsible for the creation of the universe. But since the mind is something that was created through millions of years of evolution, it would be impossible for there to be a mind (especially one this intelligent that far surpasses any human intelligence) in the beginning before the creation of the universe and evolution itself. All that was there in the very beginning was free-floating particles in space. Science even explains how these particles existed as well.

Genuises like Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god. It is not some crazy opinion of theirs that they came up with because they are "mad geniuses." They have deep respect for science and they make their conclusions based on science alone. For them to not do so would be illogical of them and would also be disrespect to science. Therefore, science alone by itself is what says there is no god and not some opinion of a crazy person who has no sense of logic or respect.

God is a superstition just like Thor the god of lightning. There used to be a belief that there was a god responsible for lightning occurring. But this was proven false by science. We now know how lightning works according to science. Virtually all superstition has been proven false by science and science is practically 90% to also disproving the existence of God and obviously ghosts and an afterlife (heaven and hell).

As for that remaining 10%, that is not evidence towards there being a God. Science does point towards some mysteries in the creation of the universe, but there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this is evidence for a God because, again, science has virtually disproven all superstition and even God in this case. Therefore, there is every reason to believe in science rather than a God.

Ghosts are superstition including heaven and hell. You might see tv shows involving ghosts claiming scientific evidence for ghosts and an afterlife, but these are all fake shows. People claiming to have witnessed ghosts and such are all delusional and this is all just a matter of their minds playing tricks on them.

Finally, just because you feel that there is more to life than just simply living and then dying and going nowhere does not make it true at all that there is a God and an afterlife. Or that you feel that bad people should get what they deserve in the end and burn in hell and that good people should go to heaven does not make it true at all that there is a heaven and a hell. There are lots of things we feel in life that should be true, but that doesn't make it true at all. What we feel is not reality. Science is reality.

Argument from the primacy of existence. That is the best argument I have heard. I don't try to convince anyone but if they want to convince me they will have to refute the fact that existence holds primacy over consciousness.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-07-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Arguments to convince religious people
(01-07-2014 08:47 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(01-07-2014 04:12 AM)JONES Wrote:  HI,

Well, can I ask you to answer some questions? And make some statements? So I can see how strong your idea is?

1. The Big bang is something that can be seen as. The starting point for both side of the debate! However, that is where god started the cosmos to his calculation that the laws of physics now follow! Can you disprove that? (They are gods laws before man decided to explain his laws to a universe that they did not want god in it!)

2. With god being timeless and he will be there to day, tomorrow and has always be there for ever and ever. He has had plenty of thought to go in to the shape of atoms and the placement of the electron fields before he started the Big Bang!

3. With Einstein and Hawking say that there is no god! You are leaving out the fact that they are only witnessing the might and majesty of gods work after the event. They are only looking at the mechanics of the cosmos, as prescribed by god!
So do they only see the order given by god!

3. As man is a frail animal we can only marvel at the fact that god gave us the lightening to balance out the forces given to the earth by the solar winds that hit our ionosphere! We only misinterpreted it. However, we can see that its god order and his way of balancing the earth to support out lives!

4. I will not argue with the ghosts as the are not spirits from the dead. However, I can say that when you depart this life your sole is in ascendance to heaven!
God take up his flock so there is none to be tested!

Now counter these arguments?


This is the sort of responses I have to put up with!

I am a card carrying atheist and have been for almost 40 years now!

I hope you have not smacked your self in the face during this discord!

Your argument is good but you may need to counter some replays like this!

Have a go as a mental exercise!

K:
I will go ahead and try. No matter what angle you approach in arguing for the existence of God, the fact still remains that all scientific evidence points towards there being no God (even in the situations you've mentioned above). Even if there were such an argument for God that no evidence of science can go against, there would be no reason to believe in God because, again, virtually all scientific evidence points towards there being no God. You should believe whatever has more evidence to support it. In this case, science has more evidence. As for "evidence" for God, this can all be practically disproven by science. If you were to believe in God anyway, this would all go back to my reasoning of what you feel is not reality and that science is reality.

Quote:You say, "Science is how things work". I disagree.

Process is how things work. Science is our currently best method for discovering the processes.
There may be things currently beyond our understanding of science at this moment. But so far, science has so far proven that everything works according to science and that there is nothing beyond science in terms of superstition.

Science is a method. Nothing else. A method for discovering reality. Science has nothing to say about the incoherent three letter meme pronounced "gawd", any more than science has something to say about pink fluffy unicorns. There is no scientific study ever designed to study a gawd. Everything does not "work according to science". Things work the way they work and the JOB of science is to discover how they work, and make predictions from evidence. There is no "entity" named "science" that "determines" (as in cauality) how things work.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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